8KCAB AFM's, POH's, and the FAA, oh my!

[Bob Turner]

Couldn’t figure out how to send this directly -

 

[Bob Turner]

There is a bit of confusion about this kind of document. One can not operate certain aircraft without it. Super Cubs lose their four page AFMs really often - they look like trash. But the good thing is, they all look alike, except for N number and serial number. The Decathlon “Operating Manual” is a totally different document, and not required.
As you can see, ours have an official-looking date stamp. Hint.
Again, you cannot legally operate without something that looks like this on board.
Bart - e-mail me.

 

[Bartman]

Bob, thanks for the picture, does that manual have a cover page?

I've been accumulating POH's for the various years of 8KCAB's, it's been part of trying to find the right one for my '77. If ACA doesn't mind me posting them here I'll start a thread where they can be viewed and/or downloaded.

Ever have any issues with the rear mounted governor? oil leaks or anything like that? I've got an H1A going in mine.

 

[Bob Turner]

That is not a POH - it is an AFM. That is in fact the cover page. I do have a "Pilot Operating Manual" which appears to be less useful and not required. It doesn't seem to resemble the AFM.

 

[Bartman]

The manuals I have are actually titled, "Pilot's Operating Manual". They have limitations in them which is the section that matters and must be onboard, no? Yours is titled as an "Aircraft Flight Manual". Maybe I've been asking for the wrong book?!?

 

[Bartman]

And here's a '75 AFM

 

[Bob Turner]

The only one required is the one specified in the type certificate. Typically it will be signed, with your aircraft number and serial number, and date of signature. For the Dec, each page says "FAA Approved."

Nothing else will do. On the other hand, does anybody ever check? An IA should, but we know about those guys . . .

 

[Bartman]

What about when the original is lost? What replacement would satisfy the requirement as you've described it?

 

[Bob Turner]

If you scratch the surface, you may find an ASI or two who will violate you for not having the exact original. Most are happy with a xerox copy so long as it shows your N- number and a signature.
If a certificate holder is still in business (like ACA) they may get you a repro that is legal for just this side of a grand - kind of like data plates . . .

 

[Bartman]

Most are happy with a xerox copy so long as it shows your N- number and a signature.

Whose signature?

 

[Bob Turner]

Ha - good question.

When I got my first pair of glasses the optometrist sold me frames guaranteed for life. When I brought the failed frames in the second time he laughed and said "whose life?"
Graduated to dime store glasses and never went back to that guy.

There has to be a moral buried in that story somewhere.

 

[Bartman]

Changed the thread title, good conversation.

 

[darrell whitley]

Mine’s a photo copy.

 

[Big Ed]

Chapter 9 of the FAA publication Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge has an extensive discussion of the AFM, POH, and owners manual. See attached file. Note in particular the discussion on page 9-2 on the differences between the AFM and POH, and how that has changed over the years. Bottom line, every plane is different, but 1975 appears to be when the POH started to replace the serial-numbered AFM, and that by 1979 the POH format was standardized. I have a serial numbered AFM for my 78 Decathlon, but I have heard many later model owners state they do not have a serial numbered AFM, but rather a generic POH.

Part 91 requires that pilots comply with operating limitations specified in approved manuals, markings, and placards. However, there is no regulation requiring a complete AFM or POH to be on board. Hence the O in ARROW. "Operating Limitations" are just one section of the AFM/POH, so as long as you have all of that data available, you are in compliance, regardless of how it is presented.

I just reviewed Section 1, Limitations, of the FAA-approved serial-numbered AFM for my '78 Decathlon. Every single operating limitation specified in that section is readily visible in my aircraft as a placard or instrument marking. I therefore assert I am in 100% compliance without my AFM on board.

 

[Bob Turner]

Nope. Check, first, the type certificate data sheets. Then check the cover page.
I personally believe the original difference between POH and AFM was the signature and weight/balance & equipment list pages. But our airplanes have two different documents.

Mine too appears to be a Xerox, but a pen and ink entry was made in 1980 leading me to believe that the factory gave us a Xerox copy when they rolled out, keeping the original so they could make more. Not sure.

 

[Bob Turner]

You may be correct about no specific regulation. A J3 does not need an AFM. However, when the type certificate requires an AFM, you must have it.
Look for an FAA authorized signature on the cover page, and a dated factory weight/balance. Ours has "FAA Approved" on the top right of the first 20 pages.
If you do not have one of these, get one. There are ways . . .

All that is plain old fact.

Here is an opinion: we are not allowed to change that document in any way. When we change the aircraft, we make new "supplements" (weight & balance and equipment lists are the most common, but some STCs come with supplements.) They become part of your AFM, and thus are also required to be on board.

No need to freak out - just slowly get into compliance just in case the FAA goes all "data tag" on us. So far I have not heard of a lightplane being grounded for lack of an AFM, but the data tag business is scary! And ours get thrown away with the rugs!

 

[Bob Turner]

From the TCDS - sorry it is so jumbled. Go there - Bart has an easy link.




basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. In addition, the following items are required:

2. 
   FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual for Model 8KCAB and Model 8GCBC.
   
4. 
   Accelerometer (Acrobatic Category Only) per Champion Drawing 7-1422
   
   (Model 8KCAB).
   
6. 
   Stall warning indicator Champion Drawing 4-1401
   
   
   

 

[Big Ed]

Yes, but per the FAA:

TCDS. Consistent with 14 CFR, a TCDS is part of a product’s type certificate (TC). A
TCDS is a summary of the product’s type design. It is used primarily by authorized persons
during initial or recurrent issuance of a Standard Airworthiness Certificate. It is neither
a regulation, a maintenance requirements document, or a flight manual document. As such,
for aircraft holding a valid and current Airworthiness Certificate, a TCDS should not be used as a
sole source to determine what maintenance is required or what the flight operations requirements
are. Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply not enforceable. There
must be a corresponding rule to make any language on the TCDS mandatory.

There is no requirement for a pilot to research or know the TCDS for his aircraft in order to operate it.

 

[Bob Turner]

That is interesting. Let me find the regulatory requirement for an annual inspection.

 

[Bob Turner]

Check out 14 cfr 91.9 and get back to us. My cut and paste is on the fritz.