Buying Used Parachutes

[Bartman]

Hi all,

Assuming I actually complete my airplane and have it flying in a couple of more months, I was thinking a parachute might be appropriate for the first few flights while I pull and push to make sure everything is ready for a return to fun flying with passengers.

Anyone out there well versed in buying a used parachute? Was just looking at the Para-Phernalia site and new ones are in the $2700 range.

What are the pros/cons of buying new vs. buying used and paying for a repack/inspection??

Thanks!
Bart

 

[Bob Turner]

I paid $500 for a set of used Security chutes. They cost $100 every 90 days for repack. Then my packer moved and another repacker unpacked, and threatened to cut the risers. Not because they were bad, but because they were old.

Left a bad taste in my mouth. It will be a very long time before I buy another parachute.

The real question is what are you doing that a parachute might help you survive? The Champ is not built for extreme aero, and there are instances where chutes didn't help when in extended spins.

 

[Bartman]

Who's flying a Champ? lol

Citabria 7ECA so I'm also hoping to transition into some basic acro eventually.

 

[Bob Turner]

I call mine a Champ. It has 180 HP and inverted fuel and oil. Flew it inverted yesterday. No chutes. They are not likely to fall apart in mid-air with low G maneuvers like slow rolls. I no longer do loops, although an Immelman is not too painful.

We have had two different fatal accidents in San Diego recently. I think both were related to wound-up spins and disorientation. Hard to use a chute when you are spinning so fast you don't know which direction you are rotating.

My recommendation - get some dual on slow and aileron rolls so you do not "pull" while inverted; limit spins to one turn or so, and forget about Lomcevaks, snap rolls, and tail slides. Parachutes are required for you and an instructor, but not if you are sole occupant. Borrow or rent for your instructional flights.

 

[Bartman]

My plan is to start looking for dual with someone before mine is completed so I can be back up to speed before the first flights. Some basic acro, unusual attitudes, and spins should do it. Would also like to have a parachute on for the first flights in case something unexpected happens and the plane becomes unflyable......unlikely but who knows. If all goes well and the plane is good to go I'd like to be able to do some basic acro in it and would like to have a parachute for that even if I'm sole occupant.

 

[Clifford Daly]

@Bartman i just finished going through the process. I got a softie chute and ended up buying one new. The advantage is that anything I get stays looking new for a long time. A lot of times you see them faded and worn. I keep mine in a controlled environment and only put it in the plane when I want to use it.

The common stuff is that a chute is good for 20 years. The guy out in California (I forget his name) sells them used and basically charges 100 bucks for every year it has left in it. Totaling 2000 bucks for a practically new one. Speaking to him, the idea is that mine, if kept new, will last 30 years so it’s well worth the investment. Some packers won’t repack it after 20 years no matter what, others will look at it and go based of its condition. I don’t blame them when in the end, it’s their signature.

Now for the reality of getting out of the airplane... good luck! I’ve committed that me in the backseat, I’m trapped. The front seat more likely to get out. But try it in the hangar. It’s not easy!

Also, don’t forget about the regs... if you’re solo you don’t need one. If you have a passenger, you BOTH need one. If you’re with a cfi, it’s a grey area but if it’s required for training then you technically don’t need to wear them.

I found a local skydive group that packs mine for lunch. Only issue is they disappear in the winter!

 

[Bob Turner]

I think only required spin training can be done without chutes, when under instruction.

My point was if you avoid the heavy aero, the flight loads on the airframe are really no more than a steep turn. My slow rolls are 1 g all the way around. I think the aileron rolls are even more gentle than that.

 

[Bartman]

Bob, with the new wings I'm planning on testing them to whatever the g-load limit of the plane is. I don't want to leave it for someone else to figure out later on that they weren't up to snuff. If things go to shit then I'd like to be able to jump out! If there are other options there that I haven't identified yet, do please tell me what they are!

 

[Bob Turner]

Nope. If you are going to the limits, get a good parachute, and practice jettisoning the door and diving on to a pile of mattresses.

I am finding that a good 1 g 4-point roll takes all the skill I have.

There is a weak spot when you get violent in a Champ, at least for gas tanks welded within the last two decades, so watch for leaks.

 

[aftCG]

I paid $500 for a set of used Security chutes. They cost $100 every 90 days for repack. Then my packer moved and another repacker unpacked, and threatened to cut the risers. Not because they were bad, but because they were old.

Left a bad taste in my mouth. It will be a very long time before I buy another parachute.

The real question is what are you doing that a parachute might help you survive? The Champ is not built for extreme aero, and there are instances where chutes didn't help when in extended spins.

My 7ECA came with a Little Softie which I assumed was too small for me (it's pretty compact). But I read up on it and it was rated for 240 lbs so it would work. Par-phernalia is barely a legal cross country flight from home for me so on a day I couldn't find my way to work I flew up there to see if they would repack my chute.

Nice people. The woman checked my chute and found it was made in 1996, and told me they don't touch them if they're over 20 years old regardless of condition. They did offer me $500 trade in towards a new one of any type. Offered to let me try both backpack style and seat cushion type (the seats of the "champ" are made for either choice).

I recently saw a pair of the seat cushion type on facebook (but typical of that %&#* couldn't find it an hour later). They were a good deal at $1200 since they were only a few years old.

I was tempted but still have to fund ADS-B out, and haven't engaged an aerobatic instructor.

Good call on renting chutes, and for pointing out you don't need one if solo.

 

[Bob Turner]

Isn't that the solution? I fly upside down only once a week, and I bet I could find ten other pilots who do the same, cutting expenses considerably if our schedules worked.

Problem is, about seven of those guys are wealthy (kid down the row has an Extra and a Citation SP). So owning and packing chutes for him is like buying a cappuccino for us.

 

[JimParker256]

Bob, you might be surprised at how receptive they might be to the idea... Some of those guys have lots of toys precisely because they take every opportunity to save money!

 

[Deleted Member]

I've been surprised by how few used chutes are available. Maybe a half dozen between TAP, Barnstormers, web searching.

 

[Big Ed]

I almost deselected myself from the gene pool about 20 years ago, when I was just starting to fly solo acro. Fortunately I had a chute. I did not use it, but I will never forget the feeling of being glad I had it.

My initial 5 hours of dual were from a guy who was fairly casual about it. He did not teach me certain important things, like making sure that your rear seat back is restrained by the rear shoulder strap when flying solo, especially if the seat back cushion is removed. I flew a loop with a straight downline on the back side. The rear seat back flopped forward when I set the downline. When I pulled out, the frame hooked over the top of the rear control stick. When I went to recover, I could not push the stick forward more than an inch or two. It remained about 3/4 back, and the nose continued to rise as if I were initiating another loop.

My control inputs after that are a bit hazy, but somehow I managed to get the airplane stabilized. I believe I cut power to slow down so I would not go over the top, then reapplied full power to fly hanging off the prop at MCA. I initially made the decision to jump and reached to jettison the door. Then I decided that I had time to try to sort it out. When I shook the stick I could hear it banging around behind me, so I was able to infer what the problem was, unstrap my harness, turn around and free the controls. They fouled again, so I got the aircraft in level flight and tied the rear seat back with the shoulder restraint. I landed and hyperventilated for about 30 minutes. Then I finished my practice session.

At that point I decided that I never wanted the last thing to go through my mind in life to be "damn, why didn't I wear a chute?"

 

[aftCG]

I almost deselected myself from the gene pool about 20 years ago, when I was just starting to fly solo acro. Fortunately I had a chute. I did not use it, but I will never forget the feeling of being glad I had it.

My initial 5 hours of dual were from a guy who was fairly casual about it. He did not teach me certain important things, like making sure that your rear seat back is restrained by the rear shoulder strap when flying solo, especially if the seat back cushion is removed. I flew a loop with a straight downline on the back side. The rear seat back flopped forward when I set the downline. When I pulled out, the frame hooked over the top of the rear control stick. When I went to recover, I could not push the stick forward more than an inch or two. It remained about 3/4 back, and the nose continued to rise as if I were initiating another loop.

My control inputs after that are a bit hazy, but somehow I managed to get the airplane stabilized. I believe I cut power to slow down so I would not go over the top, then reapplied full power to fly hanging off the prop at MCA. I initially made the decision to jump and reached to jettison the door. Then I decided that I had time to try to sort it out. When I shook the stick I could hear it banging around behind me, so I was able to infer what the problem was, unstrap my harness, turn around and free the controls. They fouled again, so I got the aircraft in level flight and tied the rear seat back with the shoulder restraint. I landed and hyperventilated for about 30 minutes. Then I finished my practice session.

At that point I decided that I never wanted my last thoughts in life to be "damn, why didn't I wear a chute?"

So in addition to the chute it might be wise to wear Depends.
Rear seat restraints are a major item on my preflight. My seat back doesn't move but I watched a video of a guy doing a routine and when I saw his belts waving around in back I said "oh hell no" and put it in the must pay attention category.

 

[BB57]

.../

/...My initial 5 hours of dual were from a guy who was fairly casual about it. He did not teach me certain important things, like making sure that your rear seat back is restrained by the rear shoulder strap when flying solo, especially if the seat back cushion is removed.

For me, Lesson Number 1 in a Citabria included the warning that anytime the rear seat is empty you need to snug up the lap belt and then tighten the shoulder harnesses to keep the seat belt up against the rear seat back to ensure the lap belt never loops itself over the stick - holding a folding seat back in the upright position is another benefit.

It's something I do every time I post flight the aircraft to decrease the potential to ever be in a rush and forget to do it when I am flying solo.

.../

/....My seat back doesn't move but I watched a video of a guy doing a routine and when I saw his belts waving around in back I said "oh hell no" and put it in the must pay attention category.

An unfastened lap belt is probably a little less likely to snag a stick than a fastened lap belt, but it's still in the "really bad idea" category.

 

[BB57]

My 7ECA came with a Little Softie which I assumed was too small for me (it's pretty compact). But I read up on it and it was rated for 240 lbs so it would work. Par-phernalia is barely a legal cross country flight from home for me so on a day I couldn't find my way to work I flew up there to see if they would repack my chute.

Nice people. The woman checked my chute and found it was made in 1996, and told me they don't touch them if they're over 20 years old regardless of condition. They did offer me $500 trade in towards a new one of any type. Offered to let me try both backpack style and seat cushion type (the seats of the "champ" are made for either choice).

There are two things in play when to comes to old parachutes.

First, in the past age wasn't considered to be an issue. However over time some manufacturers (beginning in the 1980s and 1990s, around the same time they detected acid mesh issues reserve parachutes) decided that polyamide fabric (nylon) has a life span of 30-40 years and conservatively decided that it might not be strong enough after 20 years. Legally, parachutes are approved under a TSO and unless the original TSO stated a service life, there isn't anything the company can do to impose a service life after the fact. But many of the newer designs currently on the market do have a 20 year service life. There are variations on the theme.

Para-Phernalia is one of the companies that does state a service life on the TS0 so all Softie chutes turn into pumpkins after 20 years as they cannot be legally used (at least to meet for FAA parachute requirements).

MarS is a Czech company that makes emergency parachutes and they also have a specified 20 year service life.

Strong doesn't specify a service life for its parachutes and clearly states it is up to the rigger to determine continued airworthiness. That's a benefit for an owner who takes care of his/her parachute, keeps it clean, doesn't expose it to oil, and stores it in a climate controlled environment and out of sunlight. On the other hand it leaves all the liability for determining continued airworthiness for an old parachute on the rigger.

Butler splits the difference. They don't specify a service life on the TSO but they *recommend* a service life of 20 years since entering service or 25 years since manufacture. That's enough to make most riggers uncomfortable packing a chute that is outside those recommended age limits.

(Edited) I checked for information on National Parachutes and in a 2009 owners manual they state the following: "it is the opinion of the current management at National Parachute that the maximum service life is 20 years from date of manufacture." Since they cannot change the original TSO that's a recommendation like Butler's, but again it's enough to make any rigger uncomfortable repacking a chute older than 20 years.

National also cited the military standard for service of life of no more than 16.5 years since date of manufacture and no more than 12 years since the date it was placed in service. National also referenced discussions by the Parachute Industry Association (PIA) and remarked that PIA "has visited this issue without conclusion to date." (2009 in this case).


Second, with some manufacturers and industry experts *recommending* a 20 year service life, some riggers (all of them in my area) won't pack a chute or use a container and harness that is more than 20 years old, even when it does not have a service life limit in the TSO.

 

[Big Ed]

I buckled and snugged everything up, but that wasn't enough. Learned later to tie the diagonal shoulder strap to the top of the frame.

Two other discrepancies contributed to the event. First, the seat back frame was supposed to have a fabric cover that remained when the cushion was removed, and would have prevented the frame from engaging the control stick. It was torn horizontally across the top in a way that increased the odds of snagging the stick and not letting go. Second, the seat back hinge was supposed to have a safety wire connected above and below the pivot point to restrain the back from folding all the way forward. The wire was corroded and broken.

That was the first Super D I flew. Unfortunately some guys had a prop strike after I got checked out, so I lost access to it after only a few months of flying.

 

[aftCG]

For me, Lesson Number 1 in a Citabria included the warning that anytime the rear seat is empty you need to snug up the lap belt and then tighten the shoulder harnesses to keep the seat belt up against the rear seat back to ensure the lap belt never loops itself over the stick - holding a folding seat back in the upright position is another benefit.

It's something I do every time I post flight the aircraft to decrease the potential to ever be in a rush and forget to do it when I am flying solo.



An unfastened lap belt is probably a little less likely to snag a stick than a fastened lap belt, but it's still in the "really bad idea" category.

Yeah his was a loosely fastened four point harness. I saw plenty of opportunity to get hooked on the stick

 

[BB57]

That was the first Super D I flew. Unfortunately some guys had a prop strike after I got checked out, so I lost access to it after only a few months of flying.

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View attachment 2531

How do all these prop strikes occur in Citabrias and Decathlons? You have to get the nose pitched seriously - as in scary seriously - nose down to suffer a prop strike. Are they locking up the brakes and or trying to play STOL pilot with them? Or are they taxiing into fixed objects by not S-turning?