Considering Making a Citabria/Decathlon IFR

[Mike Perun Jr]

I'm sure that many here like to operate these flying machines by listening to the motor hum and looking out the window- and i get it - im one of those as well- I am contemplating getting either a Decathlon or Explorer and was wondering perhaps with all the new Avionics like Garmin G5.or 430 Was can you legally make these birds IFR understanding fulfill that the Citabria has more real estate on the glare Shield than the decathlon - part two of question~ generally do they both hold there value equally or is the Decathlon a better long term invest - granted airplanes generally are money pits

 

[donv]

You can do it, but you need to tread carefully. The 7GCAA, for instance, is not approved for IFR per the AFM, regardless of equipment. The 7GCBC is, however. I don't know about the Decathlons, but I would check that first.

I believe American Champion has built a few IFR airplanes (they even have a Decathlon with an autopilot in testing now), so, much as I hate to say it, asking on the Facebook page might be the way to go.

 

[Bob Turner]

I think the certification basis is what counts. I can equip and fly my J-3 IFR, but my Dec has full on instruments and glide slope, yet cannot legally be flown in the clouds.

 

[Mike Perun Jr]

You can do it, but you need to tread carefully. The 7GCAA, for instance, is not approved for IFR per the AFM, regardless of equipment. The 7GCBC is, however. I don't know about the Decathlons, but I would check that first.

I believe American Champion has built a few IFR airplanes (they even have a Decathlon with an autopilot in testing now), so, much as I hate to say it, asking on the Facebook page might be the way to go.

Thank you Great Intel

 

[Bartman]

Facebook! Boooooooooo! Lol

 

[donv]

Facebook! Boooooooooo! Lol

Get Dale and Jerry to join here, then!

 

[morgan]

Assuming whatever aircraft you are looking at can legally be flown for IFR, I will say that the G5 is an excellent instrument. You could probably get by with just a single G5, but the HSI is a nice addition. The standard attitude indicator has the lateral and glideslope position indicators on it, but I find the HSI is easier to see your approach to courselines and such.

We have a G5 as a backup in our Glasair connected to an SL30 for glideslope and localizer or VOR nav. It's been a good backup although they had to get through a couple of firmware revisions to get everything working well. Initially the VOR nav was unusable due to some bug. Courses were 20 degrees off or more. A firmware update resolved that and it's been working great. It's the experimental version though, so maybe the firmware was a bit more experiment than the certified

Overall, great unit, modern feel, easily readable and quite capable for its size. Installation was very easy and the backup battery is good enough for several hours of use.

Nice that no vacuum system is required as well. Saves many pounds of weight between the pump, hose and traditional gyro driven AH.

Morgan

 

[PeterR]

Assuming whatever aircraft you are looking at can legally be flown for IFR, I will say that the G5 is an excellent instrument. You could probably get by with just a single G5, but the HSI is a nice addition. The standard attitude indicator has the lateral and glideslope position indicators on it, but I find the HSI is easier to see your approach to courselines and such.

We have a G5 as a backup in our Glasair connected to an SL30 for glideslope and localizer or VOR nav. It's been a good backup although they had to get through a couple of firmware revisions to get everything working well. Initially the VOR nav was unusable due to some bug. Courses were 20 degrees off or more. A firmware update resolved that and it's been working great. It's the experimental version though, so maybe the firmware was a bit more experiment than the certified

Overall, great unit, modern feel, easily readable and quite capable for its size. Installation was very easy and the backup battery is good enough for several hours of use.

Nice that no vacuum system is required as well. Saves many pounds of weight between the pump, hose and traditional gyro driven AH.

Morgan

Hello Morgan:
Have you tried using DME (distance measuring) with your SL30?
Thanks

 

[surfimp]

Hi all, I’m interested in this subject as well, and am curious how to answer it based on existing documents.

I have a physical copy of a Citabria AFM/POH which states, on the first page in the Operating Limitations section, that all Citabrias are permitted to fly in day or night VFR conditions only, and only so long as they’re suitably equipped per Part 91 of the FARs.

I also looked at the TCDS for one of the models I’m interested in (7-GCAA), and didn’t seem to find anything to reinforce the VFR-only statement in the AFM. There didn’t appear to be anything directly relating to avionics at all, actually.

So, I’m just curious how one would go about using existing sources of regulation to determine the legality of flying a suitably-equipped (in terms of avionics) Citabria into actual IMC. Does the limitation in the AFM simply trump all?

 

[donv]

I believe the AFM is controlling. 7GCBC can be made IFR-capable, 7GCAA can not. That said, I'm sure if you are willing to spend a lot of money, you could get an STC or pay American Champion to do whatever they need to do to change the flight manual, so it's not impossible.

In the end, it would be much more practical to just get a 7GCBC. I believe Dale Gaugher said as much when I asked him why the 7GCAA had that restriction-- no one wanted to spend the money to change it.

 

[Big Ed]

There are several other threads on this website that research the topic in greater detail. Summary: the TCDS references the AFM for conditions of flight. Since you cannot operate your aircraft contrary to the TCDS, you must comply with the AFM. Therefore, in order to legally operate in IFR you must have 2 things:
1. An aircraft equipped with all FAR-required equipment for IFR.
2. An FAA-approved AFM stating you can operate in IFR.

Some variants of the 7/8 series have undergone the necessary testing and certification for IFR as part of the TCDS. For those, the TDCS holder (ACA) can issue an amended AFM including IFR in conditions of flight. Some owners have succeeding in obtaining an amended AFM from ACA when the factory did the upgrades to add the required equipment.

Other variants of the 7/8 series, most notably the Decathlon, have not undergone IFR testing and certification as part of the TCDS. In that case, the TCDS holder cannot issue an amended AFM. The only path is a one-time STC or field approval via FSDO.

Many people have opined that this seems eminently doable, and several know of a guy on their cousin's old airfield who did it. However, definitive proof of success has only been posted for one guy: Ken Bowersox. Who, it should be noted, is an aeronautical engineer. And a graduate of the US Naval Academy. And a retired Navy F-14 pilot. And a retired NASA Astronaut. And a Space Shuttle pilot with 5 launches. And a former director of operations for SpaceX. And a current NASA deputy administrator.

So if you have as much wasta as Ken Bowersox, it should be easy!!!

 

[surfimp]

There are several other threads on this website that research the topic in greater detail. Summary: the TCDS references the AFM for conditions of flight. Since you cannot operate your aircraft contrary to the TCDS, you must comply with the AFM. Therefore, in order to legally operate in IFR you must have 2 things:
1. An aircraft equipped with all FAR-required equipment for IFR.
2. An FAA-approved AFM stating you can operate in IFR.

Thanks so much for summarizing that. Although I'd have zero intention of flying a Citabria into hard IMC, not being able to legally descend through the marine layer on an ILS approach is kind of a bummer for someone based in SoCal. C'est la vie!

 

[Bob Turner]

If every Decathlon owner got together and offered to underwrite it, I bet ACA could get it on the type certificate. But if they did stuff like "only metal spar/must have heated pitot" etc it wouldn't be worth it. Maybe an STC? Why is it such a big deal - VFR these things are stable as a rock on the ILS.

 

[donv]

Why don't you just get a 7GCBC, then?

I love my 7GCAA, but there isn't that much difference.

Thanks so much for summarizing that. Although I'd have zero intention of flying a Citabria into hard IMC, not being able to legally descend through the marine layer on an ILS approach is kind of a bummer for someone based in SoCal. C'est la vie!

 

[surfimp]

Why don't you just get a 7GCBC, then?

My understanding (from also speaking with Dale at ACA) is that it's only specific serial number ranges of 7GCBCs that can be made to be IFR certified.

If I could find one, I'd certainly consider it! I've flown a late 90s 7GCBC as part of my EMT/UPRT training, and it is a great performer.

 

[volvo164]

There are several other threads on this website that research the topic in greater detail. Summary: the TCDS references the AFM for conditions of flight. Since you cannot operate your aircraft contrary to the TCDS, you must comply with the AFM. Therefore, in order to legally operate in IFR you must have 2 things:
1. An aircraft equipped with all FAR-required equipment for IFR.
2. An FAA-approved AFM stating you can operate in IFR.

People, be careful what you post in relation to the TCDS, as blanket statements don't always apply. The 8 series TCDS references the AFM. The 7 series only references the AFM from 79 onwards (see Note 12 in the TCDS). This change was due to FAA regulations (79 onwards, all aircraft that previously weren't certified with a TCDS, must now have been provided one).
So - for the 7 series:
- Up to 1969 - clearly IFR capable because neither the TCDS for the Champion Owner's Manual restricts it
- Bellanca models up to 1979 - somewhat confusing - the TCDS again doesn't restrict it, but the Bellanca owners' manual does. No idea what this means - my understanding is that the placards trump the owner's manual, and since there's no requirement for a placard in the TCDS, there isn't one (has anyone seen a 70's Bellanca Citabria that's placarded against IFR?)
- 1979 onwards, it seems we're stuck - except for the recent alterations of the AFM by ACA for the GCBC

By the way - I can only find '75 and up Bellanca owner's manual online - does someone have a Bellanca owner's manual for the 7 series '74 and prior? Curious if that has the limitation in it or not.

I've made my '69 7ECA IFR, but I'm now considering a '74 KCAB

 

[donv]

If it is that gray, and given the money involved, I would ask Dale Gaugher before I got too serious.

 

[volvo164]

I have - ACA doesn't really comment on pre ACA planes - but if you look up his comments on the Facebook group, you'll see that basically he'll confirm that pre '79 there is no AFM, and all restrictions are listed via placards. He implies that planes were placarded against IFR - but I've not seen one. And while placards are listed in the TCDS, there are none associated with VFR or IFR.

Another factor is insurance and lawsuits. Despite the AFM not being mandatory, and the owner's manual not a regulatory document for the FAA, an insurance company or lawyer might argue that you were operating the plane contradictory to the factory owner's manual.

Really sucks that Bellanca just went ahead and changed the wording in the owner's manual, from what Champion listed. Not only did Champion allow for the possibility of IFR, but many of the early 7 series planes came with an extra tall panel to accommodate a full gyro panel.

Lastly, it seems it should be absolutely no big deal to allow these aircraft to fly IFR. If you look up the details of the individual STC that's been discussed (again on Facebook), it's basically an electrical load test. If you put in a modern transponder, gps communicator, and 2 G5s, your load is less than probably a single old transponder or nav/com. Seems the FAA is now insisting on heated pitot, despite it not being required in the regs ... but even that's easy to overcome

 

[Bob Turner]

I think it is in the certification basis. A CAR 4a aircraft can be flown IFR, but aircraft certificated under FAR (have to check -25?) are certificated with restrictions. I'll go look. If you are correct, Bart and I are overjoyed - we can fly through overcasts with a clearance!

 

[Bob Turner]

Volvo may be correct! This is what makes forums so great - collective wisdom! I see nothing in A21CE requiring a placard. I will check my AFM.

Yes, paragraph 1.1.5 - only VFR, day or night, operations are approved.
But Ed has a rationale that one might use that indicates that an AFM is not required, notwithstanding the type certificate requirement (which may have been added in 1979).

This deserves a further look. The Decathlon is a superb instrument platform, and SoCal is famous for 200' thick overcasts.