Dynon Certified Marketing Survey

Rick Ludtke

Rick Ludtke

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Messages
15
Location
Whidbey Island, WA
Hello Champ, Citabria, and Decathlon owners,

I represent Dynon, makers of the Dynon SkyView HDX integrated glass cockpit flight information system that is approved for nearly 600 Part 23 certified aircraft. SkyView HDX provides flight information, engine information, moving map navigation, ADS-B Traffic and Weather, integrated COM, integrated autopilot (for the aircraft that have been certified), and much much more.

We are considering the next airplanes to pursue for the certification of SkyView’s integrated autopilot, and wish to enlist your input.

If you have any interest in updating your certified airplane with the SkyView HDX system either with or without an autopilot, we’d like to ask for a few minutes of your time to complete this survey:

https://dynon.aero/certifymyplane

Thank you for your participation in this discussion. Your opinions matter greatly to us.

Sincerely,

Rick Ludtke
Marketing Product Analyst
Dynon
425-402-0433 Main
www.dynon.aero
Dynon Certified | Affordable Avionics For Certified Aircraft
 
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Due respect - I have heard of IFR Super Cubs with autopilots, but most ACA products are simply not certificated for IFR flight, and not used in environments requiring autopilots.

But I bet you would find interest in an inexpensive attitude/DG replacement duo - 3 1/8" instrument mount, solid state gyros? We could install them as minor alterations.
 
Bob Turner said:
Due respect - I have heard of IFR Super Cubs with autopilots, but most ACA products are simply not certificated for IFR flight, and not used in environments requiring autopilots.

But I bet you would find interest in an inexpensive attitude/DG replacement duo - 3 1/8" instrument mount, solid state gyros? We could install them as minor alterations.
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Hello Bob,
Autopilots have come a long way, thanks to the E-AB movement and systems like SkyView HDX. Autopilots are a very popular VFR workload reduction tool. I wanted to give this community a voice in Dynon's considerations for the airplanes we decide to certify the autopilot to be installed into, rather than simply assume this community would not be interested.
By the way, SkyView HDX is currently approved to be installed in the Citabria and Decathlon without an autopilot. To learn more, please visit Dynon Certified | Affordable Avionics For Certified Aircraft.

Cheers,
Rick
 
Thanks. Too complicated. As I recall, your original products were small 3 1/8" instruments? I am still using vacuum gyros, but have one eye open for digital replacements. Glass panel? Not for me - I have retired from the A320, and now want to look out the window full time.
 
Rick,

Really cool of you to come here and ask us our thoughts. Much appreciated. The Skyview HDX looks like a neat product.

Bart will get irked at me for suggesting this, but if you want eyeballs, you should probably hit the Citabria-Decathlon-Scout Facebook group. This forum is a smaller, closer knit forum where we all get to know each other and think through problems in a respectful manner. The Facebook group has all the problems inherent to modern social media, so you are probably going to get some idiotic replies, but it also has a lot of members and a lot of activity.

My own sentiments are close to Bob. Most pilots who gravitate to this type of aircraft are stick and rudder guys for which hand flying the bird is the whole point of it. These aircraft generally do not have the speed or range to be good cross country machines, so big glass panels are overkill. I need an autopilot in my Decathlon like I need an accordion for deer hunting.

Having said that, I'm not a bush pilot in Alaska, and maybe in more demanding environments like that an autopilot could be a game changer.

If you really want to get attention from this crowd, focus on smaller and lighter. For example, add our aircraft to the STC for the D10A. You could probably sell 25 of those for every HDX.
 
Big Ed said:
Rick,

Really cool of you to come here and ask us our thoughts. Much appreciated. The Skyview HDX looks like a neat product.

Bart will get irked at me for suggesting this, but if you want eyeballs, you should probably hit the Citabria-Decathlon-Scout Facebook group. This forum is a smaller, closer knit forum where we all get to know each other and think through problems in a respectful manner. The Facebook group has all the problems inherent to modern social media, so you are probably going to get some idiotic replies, but it also has a lot of members and a lot of activity.

My own sentiments are close to Bob. Most pilots who gravitate to this type of aircraft are stick and rudder guys for which hand flying the bird is the whole point of it. These aircraft generally do not have the speed or range to be good cross country machines, so big glass panels are overkill. I need an autopilot in my Decathlon like I need an accordion for deer hunting.

Having said that, I'm not a bush pilot in Alaska, and maybe in more demanding environments like that an autopilot could be a game changer.

If you really want to get attention from this crowd, focus on smaller and lighter. For example, add our aircraft to the STC for the D10A. You could probably sell 25 of those for every HDX.
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Glad to know I'm not the only one who has no use for an auto pilot. I actually PM'd Rick yesterday because I didn't want to dirty up the Citabria thread with my curmudgeon attitude towards auto pilots.
However, I'm not sure why people don't think these are cross country machines. Even pulled back to 2200 rpm my Citabria is MUCH faster than my Porsche at getting across the state (or even 100 miles up I-5) and the view is better.

I need moving map far more than I need an attitude indicator. Busting airspace is more of a concern than losing the horizon for a VFR pilot.
 
My Decathlon flies hands off, even in bumps. It needs gentle rudder pressure to hold heading, and a deft touch of trim now and then. I get 120 kts at 7500’. Not a Mooney 201, but I can fly upside down, and it cost half what a 201 would have.
 
Well - seems I'm the very small minority, at least in terms of IFR. I bought a Champion 7ECA (pre Bellanca) and certified it for IFR with Garmin G5 units, GNC355 GPS/COM and a clock. Unlike Bellanca and American Champion Citabrias, the earlier Champion models are not restricted to VFR only in their flight manual. But my aim is to be able to go through layers, be able to fly light IFR. The plane is so stable, it flies hands off with just rudder for turns. The 7ECA also has amazing range, so despite the slow pace makes a pretty good IFR platform. So sure, I would be interested in an autopilot ...
 
volvo164 said:
Well - seems I'm the very small minority, at least in terms of IFR. I bought a Champion 7ECA (pre Bellanca) and certified it for IFR with Garmin G5 units, GNC355 GPS/COM and a clock. Unlike Bellanca and American Champion Citabrias, the earlier Champion models are not restricted to VFR only in their flight manual.
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That's really cool. I would love to hear more about the approval process and see some pics. Maybe you could start a topic? Quite irksome that it is possible for early models but not for later models, based solely on a line in a manual.
 
Big Ed said:
That's really cool. I would love to hear more about the approval process and see some pics. Maybe you could start a topic? Quite irksome that it is possible for early models but not for later models, based solely on a line in a manual.
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The approval process is simple: follow the Garmin G5 STC (carefully - I've seen installs where instruments like turn coordinator and / or vertical speed are removed - the Garmin STC requires these to be retained, each G5 can only take the place of 1 instrument (AI for 1, DG/HSI for the 2nd). I kept the short panel, so replaced my tach with a 2 1/4 inch unit to make space for the 2 G5s. Note minimum instruments - so installed a clock. Then did an IFR cert (which for me required a new altimeter as well).
 
volvo164 said:
The approval process is simple: follow the Garmin G5 STC (carefully - I've seen installs where instruments like turn coordinator and / or vertical speed are removed - the Garmin STC requires these to be retained, each G5 can only take the place of 1 instrument (AI for 1, DG/HSI for the 2nd). I kept the short panel, so replaced my tach with a 2 1/4 inch unit to make space for the 2 G5s. Note minimum instruments - so installed a clock. Then did an IFR cert (which for me required a new altimeter as well).
Click to expand...

Do you have a heated pitot tube? It's my understanding that is one of the obstacles with the later wood-winged models. Have heard that it is theoretically possible to make a Decathlon IFR but gotta have metal wings.

What would it take to get an STC to allow IFR cert of Bellanca models, or is that an impossibility under the rules?
 
Not simple for the later ACA products. I do not need an autopilot, but I am fully equipped for IFR, including a glideslope receiver, and I stay current. I cannot legally fly in the clouds due to certification limits.
 
Big Ed said:
Do you have a heated pitot tube? It's my understanding that is one of the obstacles with the later wood-winged models. Have heard that it is theoretically possible to make a Decathlon IFR but gotta have metal wings.

What would it take to get an STC to allow IFR cert of Bellanca models, or is that an impossibility under the rules?
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I'm not familiar with the STC - since it's not needed for the Champion models. I do have a metal wing, but that's an aside. Heated pitot is not an FAA requirement and I do not have one. I was considering an ACA Aurora (current 7ECA), and spoke to the factory about options for IFR, and was told that because of the certification limitations (i.e. flight manual) it would require a field approval, and stated that most FISDO's are very reluctant to approve any modifications contrary to certification limitations. I do wonder why Bellanca changed the limitations - even if certification limitations grew more stringent, these models would have grandfathered in. Suspect it was a liability decision?
 
Your survey has some issues.

The Champ options are limited to 7EC.

The Citabria options are 7ECA, and "7EGC", which isn't one of the options. The other Citabria models are the 7GCAA, 7KCAB and 7GCBC

You got the Decathlons right, and the Scout is almost right - it's an 8GCBC, not an 8GCB.

It also doesn't work well for people who own more than 1 airplane. I completed it for my 7KCAB (I used 7EGC, since it's not a 7ECA). However, I can't complete it for my PA-22/20-150 where I'd actually be much more interested in the panel upgrade, since it'll eventually be the IFR go places airplane.
 
To add to the last post - there were no questions regarding the autopilot compatibility with other party products (Garmin in my case).
 
Only partly tongue in cheek, if you need someone with a background in program planning and evaluation with extensive experience in research survey design, and management experience up to an including directing a $63 million state program with 400 plus staff, as well as a background in general aviation going back to 1982, I'm available as a consultant. You are going to have to up your game if you want usable data, rather than just using a "survey" as product advertisement.
 
Rick Ludtke said:
Hello Champ, Citabria, and Decathlon owners,

I represent Dynon, makers of the Dynon SkyView HDX integrated glass cockpit flight information system that is approved for nearly 600 Part 23 certified aircraft. SkyView HDX provides flight information, engine information, moving map navigation, ADS-B Traffic and Weather, integrated COM, integrated autopilot (for the aircraft that have been certified), and much much more.

We are considering the next airplanes to pursue for the certification of SkyView’s integrated autopilot, and wish to enlist your input.

If you have any interest in updating your certified airplane with the SkyView HDX system either with or without an autopilot, we’d like to ask for a few minutes of your time to complete this survey:

Dynon Certified Marketing Survey

Thank you for your participation in this discussion. Your opinions matter greatly to us.

Sincerely,

Rick Ludtke
Marketing Product Analyst
Dynon
425-402-0433 Main
www.dynon.aero
Dynon Certified | Affordable Avionics For Certified Aircraft
Click to expand...


Hi Rich,

Thanks for stopping by to post about your survey. Generally speaking, the category of airplanes we're discussing here are usually VFR only with very limited instrumentation. Even if there was a desire to install the instruments to make them IFR we're still talking about light planes where every pound of useful load is valuable. There are some Citabria variants where IFR equipment is routinely installed but those are more in the category of utility use where IFR certification makes them more commercially viable.

Having said that, the factory is moving towards autopilots in new planes and the interconnect between the two control sticks now includes a lug for attachment to an autopilot servo so we may be something of a market for you, more than we'd like to admit.

Can you maybe summarize what your system would replace and a summary of the weight of the components we'd be able to remove and what your replacement components would weigh?

I like the idea of a flat panel with attitude, heading, moving map, weather, traffic and engine displays all incorporated, especially if the black box driving everything is tolerant of aerobatics but I'm not well versed in these things except at work where I am forced to stare at these types of displays for long hours at all times of the day/night.

Thanks again, glad you found us, and looking forward to your reply. By the way, that little Pitts, is that from the Midwest kit and did you post a picture of it to FB recently?

Regards,
Bart
 
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One thought on autopilots: Decathlon and Citabria are type certified in the Aerobatic category, so any device installed would need to be tested and proven compatible with aerobatic maneuvers, especially if there was some sort of envelope protection. That would probably be a substantial increase in cost, so it might make sense to focus the initial STC on the non-aerobatic versions of the 7/8 series.
 
BB57 said:
Your survey has some issues.

The Champ options are limited to 7EC.

The Citabria options are 7ECA, and "7EGC", which isn't one of the options. The other Citabria models are the 7GCAA, 7KCAB and 7GCBC

You got the Decathlons right, and the Scout is almost right - it's an 8GCBC, not an 8GCB.

It also doesn't work well for people who own more than 1 airplane. I completed it for my 7KCAB (I used 7EGC, since it's not a 7ECA). However, I can't complete it for my PA-22/20-150 where I'd actually be much more interested in the panel upgrade, since it'll eventually be the IFR go places airplane.
Click to expand...
Hi BB,
Thanks for the information. I'll make these improvements. To be honest, I have never fully understood the alphabet soup of the Bellanca system, despite the fact that I have maintained many of these airplanes for customers and friends over the years.
Rick
 
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