EMS vs individual gauges

Big Ed

Big Ed

N50247 - '79 Super D
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
Messages
1,938
Location
Tampa, FL
I keep trying to talk myself into a primary Engine Monitor. The big selling point of those is "you can throw all the old gauges away". But I just can't fully embrace the concept. Interested in views from others, especially on resale value and market appeal.

Option A: EI CGR-30P as primary. Keep tach as secondary. Remove MP, OT, OP, FP, VM, and AMM. Cost: $4K

CGR.webp

Option B: JPI EDM-830 as secondary. Keep tach, MP, OT, VM, and AMM. Buy new electric OP and FP. Cost: $4K.

JPI.webp


Both get equivalent functionality: all required engine gauges, plus 4 cylinder CHT/EGT and fuel flow. Dimmable night display. Alerts when parameters exceeded. No "wet" gauges in cockpit.

Option A opens up five 2" gauge holes, and saves the weight of the removed instruments, which is maybe 2 or 3 pounds. But what do I do with the open gauge holes? Not enough room for a MFD or air gizmo, and I don't want to undertake a project to move the breakers and switches to the main panel. If I can't use that extra space, then what good is a section of blank panel staring at me?

I get stuck mentally on the "all eggs in one basket" scenario inherent to Option A. In the air, I am totally dependent upon a single magic box. On the ground, if I have a problem with the CGR-30 then I am AOG until it is resolved. I am totally dependent on EI customer service to source the parts. If the problem is with the head unit itself, I am totally dependent upon EI to fix the unit. If after warranty period, worst case scenario could result in buying a new engine monitor. Plus the monitor is configured at the factory, with no changes possible.

Option B results in redundancy for all primary gauges. If I am in the air and a gauge or sender fails, I have a backup. Not approved for primary, but could make the difference between getting stuck in the middle of nowhere waiting on parts (BTDT, got the T-shirt), or continuing home. On the ground, I can replace that gauge with another gauge for a few hundred bucks from Aircraft Spruce, with several choices available.

At this point, am still leaning towards Option B. But feeling peer pressure. The rest of the world seems to think a primary EMS is the bomb. Don't want to dump a bunch of money into a solution that will not appeal to buyers, in case I later decide to move on from this project.

So, what say ye all?
 
All this fancy stuff may be "the bomb" but it surely isn't necessary to go well beyond TBO if you fly often. The weight savings is negligible - would you fly barefoot to save a pound or two?

As to resale - it may add a bit, but you will never recover your investment. Things are changing pretty rapidly in avionics - they should start progressing in ignition and fuel injection systems - then maybe modern electronics will actually save you a few gallons here and there.

I personally like the antique look, although someday I will replace the RC Allen gyros with TV Screens I guess. Cheaper and more reliable, and I can leave them on full time.

You asked. Opinion.
 
Bob Turner said:
All this fancy stuff may be "the bomb" but it surely isn't necessary to go well beyond TBO if you fly often. The weight savings is negligible - would you fly barefoot to save a pound or two?

As to resale - it may add a bit, but you will never recover your investment. Things are changing pretty rapidly in avionics - they should start progressing in ignition and fuel injection systems - then maybe modern electronics will actually save you a few gallons here and there.

I personally like the antique look, although someday I will replace the RC Allen gyros with TV Screens I guess. Cheaper and more reliable, and I can leave them on full time.

You asked. Opinion.
Click to expand...

Of course it is all subjective.

One could categorize EMS functions as required, prudent, helpful, or gratuitous. IMO:
  • Required: OT, OP, FP, MP, RPM, AMM
  • Prudent: 4 cylinder EGT/CHT on a new engine
  • Helpful: fuel flow, temperature alerts
  • Gratuitous: % HP
Having a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT is not "necessary", but it provides some peace of mind after spending $40K on an engine overhaul. 40 years ago having a gauge on the hottest cylinder and exhaust was considered "good enough", but that was a compromise based on cost and panel space. Modern technology has solved the space issue and made the cost reasonable. I don't think everyone with a plane needs to run out and buy one. But it makes good sense to install one with a new engine. Especially when the firewall and panel backside are exposed.

I've flown XC just fine without fuel flow for several hundred hours in the last 2 years. But that's enough to convince me I would enjoy having it.

I know myself well enough to know that I don't check OT and OP as often as I should. Having a blinking red alert seems like a good idea to buy a few extra seconds of reaction time.

I confess I just want % HP, despite having no need for it. I get tired of pulling out my POH to check the power settings for 75% power every time I change altitude. Having a gauge calculate that would enhance my enjoyment of XC.
 
I know of only 2 folks out of very many with the cgr-30 that had problems with the main box, and neither of which caused them to AOG on the road. One had an issue with keeping tach time and the other had to do with erratic flickering screen. Not related to the cgr-30 in of itself, there's always an array of failures with the sensors.

I choose the cgr-30 for my GCBC. The main reason was that I was having issues with the factory gauges dying of old age. I had replaced the oil pressure with another old used unit. The tach was sticking, and sometimes failing to count hours, and the oil temp probe broke. The cost of replacing the required gauges with new exceeded the cost of an engine analyzer. wasn't going to pay twice.

I personally have had far better customer service with EI vs JPI. Very fast turn-around times and near instant tech support. And very nominal fees for out of warranty repairs, far less than buying new. My C-180 has older non-primary EI gauges in it that I have had to send in from time to time.

You could also go with a non-primary cgr-30 which might be slighter cheaper, but more customizable. Keep your factory gauges. And find out what EI would charge to make it primary if you choice down the road? The wiring and boxes would already be installed.

FYI, if you choose the G-meter in the CGR-30, it only reads real time, and does not hold max values on the gauge. You have to download the flight data after each flight to see what the max was. Kinda useless for an acro-plane I think. So I left the analog g-meter in the panel.
 
Tangogawd said:
I choose the cgr-30 for my GCBC. The main reason was that I was having issues with the factory gauges dying of old age. I had replaced the oil pressure with another old used unit. The tach was sticking, and sometimes failing to count hours, and the oil temp probe broke. The cost of replacing the required gauges with new exceeded the cost of an engine analyzer. wasn't going to pay twice.
Click to expand...

I have replaced the tach, manifold pressure, and oil temp in the last 2 years. I have a new oil pressure gauge kit coming from ACA, and new ammeter and voltmeter sitting in a box. The only thing left to replace is my fuel pressure gauge.

I suppose I should look at the STC for the CGR-30P and see what it says about leaving in some of the old gauges for redundancy.

JPI is known for poor customer service, unfortunately. But the ability of the EDM 730/830 to reconfigure based on inputs is very appealing. The configuration is not locked at the factory like the CGR-30P.
 
I don't know the in's and out's of the CGR as I have only installed the primary replacement. But seeing as you have all new gauges that should out last you, something fully customizable would be nice.
 
Are you morally opposed to Garmin? The GI-275 EIS looks like a pretty strong competitor to the EI-CGR30P. Why not get the certified AND keep the backups if you have the panel space?
 
AdamMorton said:
Are you morally opposed to Garmin? The GI-275 EIS looks like a pretty strong competitor to the EI-CGR30P. Why not get the certified AND keep the backups if you have the panel space?
Click to expand...
I am, but my moral compass is flexible. I can overlook a lot if the price is right. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case here. The GI is $1K more than the CGR, and does not include several of the sensors. It comes with some impressive features, but they are overkill for my plane. Thanks for the idea though!
 
I am morally opposed to Garmin. They have some of the best avionics, but when a flaw appears, they have no interest in fixing it.

Case in point - the GTR-200 has inadequate RF squelch, and local noise drives us nuts. They know how to make good RF receivers - just drop the SL-40 receiver in there! They won't fix it.

We use the GTR anyway, because it has the very best open cockpit intercom, and because the memory circuits are superb.

We also use the 295/296/496 handhelds. Way better presentation than the 430, and a million times easier to program. I have mine set up for horizontal flight director and glideslope all the way to the runway. VFR only, but then, so is the Decathlon.
 
Yeah, my esteem for Garmin took a big hit when they bricked my GDL-50 with an OTA firmware update and then said it was not serviceable. BS ... Firmware can be wiped and reflashed. It just wasn't worth their effort to do so after the warranty period, even at cost.

They make a lot of good stuff. My GTR-225 has been flawless. They are constantly innovating. The GI is a great example of that. And how many vacuum systems have been yanked in favor of a pair of G5's?

But ultimately their target is the higher end of the market, not our family of aircraft.

Back to my choice. The EI is probably the logical choice, but I just can't quite get myself to like it. Am 99% I will go with the EDM 730 or 830.
 
Big Ed said:
Yeah, my esteem for Garmin took a big hit when they bricked my GDL-50 with an OTA firmware update and then said it was not serviceable. BS ... Firmware can be wiped and reflashed. It just wasn't worth their effort to do so after the warranty period, even at cost.

They make a lot of good stuff. My GTR-225 has been flawless. They are constantly innovating. The GI is a great example of that. And how many vacuum systems have been yanked in favor of a pair of G5's?

But ultimately their target is the higher end of the market, not our family of aircraft.

Back to my choice. The EI is probably the logical choice, but I just can't quite get myself to like it. Am 99% I will go with the EDM 730 or 830.
Click to expand...
Digging up this old thread to ask what you wound up doing? In a similar boat myself, wanting 4 cyl CHT & EGT plus fuel flow/totalization, and the CGR-30P is calling my name.
 
I personally like E. I. products a lot and the company backs up their units. If you have issues they have a pretty good turn around time. The CGR-30P is showing up in a lot of aircraft. Used correctly they do save you some fuel and keep you abreast of that expensive gold plated Lycoming in front of you. Be aware that depending on the aircraft you will be spending extra bucks to improve the fuel management with these units as in buying new fuel sending units and the such. Of course that is not normally a Champ, Citabria, Decathlon issue. You can have a feed into the CGR-30P for fuel used from a fuel transducer in the Carb fuel line, that is a pretty nice security blanket, however like everything else with new technology it should be backed up by a clock.

Also before one goes down the road of these improvments you should do a gut check as into what will this screen time do to your normal flying habit? What will this do to my situational awareness? We all suffer from too much screen time.

The single biggest improvement I have made from a new technology stand point on my own aircraft has been the surefly Magneto in the left position on my engine. I have documented fuel savings with this unit of a gallon a hour when leaning your engine correctly. On the ground at lowest RPM setting it no longer sounds like a 4 cyl lycoming as in lopping along. The timing function works great and these units stay on your engine for the life of the engine instead of coming off every 500 hrs for overhaul. In other words they pay for them selves. Lycoming was so convinced by these surefly Magnetos that they are putting them on their own brand new engines and installing where approved.

The other improvement I found productive is the (permanent installation) Challenger oil filter instead of the 40.00 oil filter that gets maybe 50 hrs on it and has to be cut open for inspection and then thrown away. In about 8 to10 oil changes the challenger pays for it self.

Disclaimer here, I am not a paid spokesman for any of the above products,

Cheers, Brian
 
worth a look, sorry!

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