sekwork
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And I agree with you on that.
Garmin GTR-200 - non-TSO radio
- Thread starter Bob Turner
- Start date
Eric Brown
Well-known member
I worked for a CRS many years installing avionics equipment. The question of major and minor alteration came up many times. One ASI from the local FSDO would say that " if the airplane manufacturer provided a location to install a radio and you installed one in that location --- it's minor alteration". Another ASI from the same FSDO would say, " if it's not on the approved airplane equipment list --- it's a major alteration".
Now ..... non-TSO'd avionics equipment in 7 series airplanes should be no problem. These airplanes were and still are certified under CAR4a, with certain certification requirements set under part FAR23. Under the NAC ( non air carrier) sections 04a.512(e) and 04a.513(a) there is no mention of the equipment minimum standards, other than the frequencies required. Unless current regulations (FAR91) dictate that certain equipment requirements be met, there is nothing to point to that says, "you must install TSO".
Now ..... non-TSO'd avionics equipment in 7 series airplanes should be no problem. These airplanes were and still are certified under CAR4a, with certain certification requirements set under part FAR23. Under the NAC ( non air carrier) sections 04a.512(e) and 04a.513(a) there is no mention of the equipment minimum standards, other than the frequencies required. Unless current regulations (FAR91) dictate that certain equipment requirements be met, there is nothing to point to that says, "you must install TSO".
Last edited:
Bob Turner
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There are a pair of part 91 requirements. 14 CFR 91.205 and 215.
I think I covered this before, but in a nutshell, 215 requires transponder equipment to “meet” TSO requirements, and 205 addresses com equipment without mentioning TSO. Note that the FAA defines “meet” very carefully in Order 8300.16A.
I note that I have not posted a suggestion for a logbook entry in this thread. Standby. . .
I think I covered this before, but in a nutshell, 215 requires transponder equipment to “meet” TSO requirements, and 205 addresses com equipment without mentioning TSO. Note that the FAA defines “meet” very carefully in Order 8300.16A.
I note that I have not posted a suggestion for a logbook entry in this thread. Standby. . .
Last edited:
Bob Turner
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I suggest this as a pretty much bulletproof log entry:
Garmin GTR-200 Com installed per Garmin GTR-200/200B Installation Manual.
This unit meets RTCA DO186B, thus it meets TSO requirements. Regulations for similar equipment (transponders) require only that the equipment meet TSO requirements. See 14 CFR 91.215 and Order 8300.16A CHG 1 App. 1.10.
This installation is a minor alteration, requiring only acceptable data. See 14 CFR 1 and 43 App A. See also AC 20.67B.
Garmin GTR-200 Com installed per Garmin GTR-200/200B Installation Manual.
This unit meets RTCA DO186B, thus it meets TSO requirements. Regulations for similar equipment (transponders) require only that the equipment meet TSO requirements. See 14 CFR 91.215 and Order 8300.16A CHG 1 App. 1.10.
This installation is a minor alteration, requiring only acceptable data. See 14 CFR 1 and 43 App A. See also AC 20.67B.
all I can add is that you guys are awesome
what is a CRS? Certified Repair Station?
Eric Brown
Well-known member
what is a CRS? Certified Repair Station?
[/QUOTE]
Affirmative.
[/QUOTE]
Affirmative.
Desert7GCBC
Active member
OK, I'm lighting-up this thread again after 6 months;
Thank you, Bob Turner and the others who've presented all this valuable information!
My 20-year-old KY97A com is getting critically wonky. The local Garmin dealer won't work on it. It's been a perfectly adequate radio and I've been offered a "refurbished" identical radio with a 90-day warranty for $1400 exchange. That seems to be pretty high for a used radio though it would massively simplify installation.
I've requested a quote to purchase and install a Garmin GTR225 from the Garmin dealer but haven't heard back from them. (I'll pass the quote on when I get it.)
This thread has convinced me that the GTR200 is also a good option, at $1000 less, though I doubt I doubt the Garmin shop will install it as it's non-TSOd.
So here's the question; Is it possible for my IA and myself to install it? This IA, who's worked with me for many years, planned and installed several steam-guage IFR panels years ago but he's probably going to be gob-smacked by the 88-page GTR200 installation manual, especially where they mention "programming".
Both of us are competent with basic electrical stuff but this is intimidating!
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Paul
Thank you, Bob Turner and the others who've presented all this valuable information!
My 20-year-old KY97A com is getting critically wonky. The local Garmin dealer won't work on it. It's been a perfectly adequate radio and I've been offered a "refurbished" identical radio with a 90-day warranty for $1400 exchange. That seems to be pretty high for a used radio though it would massively simplify installation.
I've requested a quote to purchase and install a Garmin GTR225 from the Garmin dealer but haven't heard back from them. (I'll pass the quote on when I get it.)
This thread has convinced me that the GTR200 is also a good option, at $1000 less, though I doubt I doubt the Garmin shop will install it as it's non-TSOd.
So here's the question; Is it possible for my IA and myself to install it? This IA, who's worked with me for many years, planned and installed several steam-guage IFR panels years ago but he's probably going to be gob-smacked by the 88-page GTR200 installation manual, especially where they mention "programming".
Both of us are competent with basic electrical stuff but this is intimidating!
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Paul
Bob will tell you, it's very simple, a small number of wires and you're done. The intercom works great, the radio reception is excellent, the monitor feature is super handy, I'm completely happy with mine.
Bob Turner
Well-known member
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If I haven't already, I will post my cheat sheets.
Bob Turner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2018
- Messages
- 2,712
Yeah - see page 1 for the truly simple wiring. I can do it while I watch the evening news. I will post the cheat sheet shortly.
Desert7GCBC
Active member
Thanks Bob! My panic about this is receding. I've spent some time with the installation manual and now realize that 90% of the complicated options they detail don't apply to my basic installation. (All I need is a com radio that works from both seats.) Much of the verbiage in the manual is just Lawyerese to cover their backside. This is starting to look doable.
I'll report progress...
Thanks again!.
I'll report progress...
Thanks again!.
Bob Turner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2018
- Messages
- 2,712
Garmin GTR-200 Notes November 4, 2018
Installing these things is easy – almost trivial.
We need a pair of 20 gauge for power and ground – pins 1 & 20
Two leads for radio PTT – Capt pin 15
F/O pin 35
Optional, but a really good idea – PTT leads for “Discrete 1 & 2” (We no longer use them - 2023)
Pin 2 for Capt ICS, pin 22 for F/O
Must do this for Stearman!
And four shielded pairs – two for headsets and two for microphones.
Pins 12 & 30 are high and low for F/O ears
Pins 14 & 33 are Capt ears
Pins 16 & 34 are F/O microphone
Pins 17 & 36 are Capt microphone
That’s it! Fuse the power in – 5 amp is probably enough.
Shields are tied at the plug, and not at the jacks. Note that tying the shields together in the order above will enable easy plug-in of all crimped connector ends. High and low in each case are practically adjacent on the plug.
Microphone jacks – signal is always the RING. The tip is the old PTT connection – now obsolete, since nobody uses hand microphones, ever!
I run ground lines for all four PTT wires – wire is cheap, and it is 22 gauge. Connect to the shield block at the radio.
Internal programming is done by holding the inner knob in while switching power ON.
There are five areas that need setting for normal use – Comm, Audio, Soft Key, Discrete key, and Lighting. “Back” appears next to the lower “Soft” key. Cycle through them with those knobs.
Comm
Side tone .5
Mic gain .5
RF Squelch 10
Mon swap – OFF
Audio
Intercom enable – YES
Rcvr Out 100%
Aux 1 Squelch 30%
Aux 1 Vol 50%
Aux 1 mute – NO
Aux 2 Squelch 30%
Aux 2 vol 50%
Aux 2 mute – NO
Pilot RS – NO
Soft Key
Key 1 – User List
Key 2 – User frequency memory cycle
Discrete Key
Disc 1 – Pilot ICS
Disc 2 – Copilot ICS
Lighting
Service – SENSOR
Time constant – 5.0
Min Input – 10%
Min Bright - 50%
Max input – 90%
Max Bright – 100%
Button off – 10%
There are more – from the “MENU” button:
ҍҍ Vol 45%
ICS Vol 60%
ICS Squelch – 90% (85% in Stearman)
Setup (push the inner knob to access these)
Com Mute ҍҍ – OFF
Com Mute ICS – OFF
Com 3D Audio – OFF
ICS 3D Audio – OFF
CKPT Noise – HIGH
ҍҍ Bass Boost – OFF
ҍҍ Equalizer – OFF
Key Beep Vol – 25%
Contrast – 10%
User Freq
Pushing the inner knob lets you edit or add new memory frequencies. It is not 100% obvious – say you want to create a new frequency:
Scroll to the end of the list, where it says ADD. Push the inner knob. Then rotating the inner knob puts a character in the top line, and rotating the outer knob moves to the next character. Once you have created a name, press the inner knob and it will send you to the frequency field. Little knob for the first numbers, then big knob over to the little numbers. Press the little knob when the frequency looks ok. Then move the big knob to highlight SAVE, press the little knob, and done!
Working with Tim Larburg at Garmin, trying to get more RF squelch range. The only bad thing about this fine radio is it cannot squelch out the local interference off of 28 Right, and now on base leg over the golf course. Makes us deaf! See e-mail November 14, 2018.
2022 – no longer bothering to hook up the intercom ptt lines – the intercom is good enough on open mic, even in the Stearman with proper muffs on the microphones. (2023 – even in the 450 Stearman at full power!) Never a question about it in the open door Cubs.
We are running with about 85% squelch on the intercom –accessible just by pushing “menu”.
Handout for installed GTR-200 radios:
Note that the radio is turned on and off, and tuned/ flip-flopped just like radios in the 1970s. The flip-flop button is top right, and has arrows. Can’t miss.
But if you like an easier way, note the two buttons on the left – the ones with only a dash in the middle.
The bottom button is the most useful. Hit it once, and MYF ATIS will be ready to flip-flop.
Hit it more than once, and you will scroll through the list, which I will repeat below.
The top button is programmed to do more or less the same thing, except it requires you to twirl through frequencies with the small, inner knob on the right side. Its advantage is that you can get to, say, RNM rapidly. Its disadvantage is that you must “flip-flop” right away – it doesn’t stay there for more than five seconds.
The intercom is controlled by the MENU button – press it, and you will see a list on the left of the screen. Use the large knob, rotated clockwise until the intercom squelch is highlighted, then adjust that with the small inner knob. Note that volume is also selectable. To get out, depress the lower “dash” key on the left. Note that momentarily, the screen says “back” next to that key.
Radio squelch is the volume knob. Depress.
Installing these things gives FAA inspectors heartburn. They are not TSO, and my PMI thinks it is not legal to install non-TSO radios. He has yet to come up with even FAA guidance to that effect, let alone a rule.
But just in case, enter this in your logbook when installing one of these fine radios:
Removed _______, Installed Garmin GTR-200. No change in weight and balance: equipment list revised.
Garmin GTR-200 installed per Garmin GTR-200/200B Installation Manual. This unit meets RTCA DO186B, thus it meets TSO requirements.
Regulations for similar equipment (transponders) require only that the equipment meet TSO requirements. See 14 CFR 91.215 and Order 8300.16 CHG 1 App 1.10.
This installation is a minor alteration, requiring only acceptable data. See 14 CFR 1 and 14 CFR 43 App A. See also AC 20.67B.
Installing these things is easy – almost trivial.
We need a pair of 20 gauge for power and ground – pins 1 & 20
Two leads for radio PTT – Capt pin 15
F/O pin 35
Optional, but a really good idea – PTT leads for “Discrete 1 & 2” (We no longer use them - 2023)
Pin 2 for Capt ICS, pin 22 for F/O
Must do this for Stearman!
And four shielded pairs – two for headsets and two for microphones.
Pins 12 & 30 are high and low for F/O ears
Pins 14 & 33 are Capt ears
Pins 16 & 34 are F/O microphone
Pins 17 & 36 are Capt microphone
That’s it! Fuse the power in – 5 amp is probably enough.
Shields are tied at the plug, and not at the jacks. Note that tying the shields together in the order above will enable easy plug-in of all crimped connector ends. High and low in each case are practically adjacent on the plug.
Microphone jacks – signal is always the RING. The tip is the old PTT connection – now obsolete, since nobody uses hand microphones, ever!
I run ground lines for all four PTT wires – wire is cheap, and it is 22 gauge. Connect to the shield block at the radio.
Internal programming is done by holding the inner knob in while switching power ON.
There are five areas that need setting for normal use – Comm, Audio, Soft Key, Discrete key, and Lighting. “Back” appears next to the lower “Soft” key. Cycle through them with those knobs.
Comm
Side tone .5
Mic gain .5
RF Squelch 10
Mon swap – OFF
Audio
Intercom enable – YES
Rcvr Out 100%
Aux 1 Squelch 30%
Aux 1 Vol 50%
Aux 1 mute – NO
Aux 2 Squelch 30%
Aux 2 vol 50%
Aux 2 mute – NO
Pilot RS – NO
Soft Key
Key 1 – User List
Key 2 – User frequency memory cycle
Discrete Key
Disc 1 – Pilot ICS
Disc 2 – Copilot ICS
Lighting
Service – SENSOR
Time constant – 5.0
Min Input – 10%
Min Bright - 50%
Max input – 90%
Max Bright – 100%
Button off – 10%
There are more – from the “MENU” button:
ҍҍ Vol 45%
ICS Vol 60%
ICS Squelch – 90% (85% in Stearman)
Setup (push the inner knob to access these)
Com Mute ҍҍ – OFF
Com Mute ICS – OFF
Com 3D Audio – OFF
ICS 3D Audio – OFF
CKPT Noise – HIGH
ҍҍ Bass Boost – OFF
ҍҍ Equalizer – OFF
Key Beep Vol – 25%
Contrast – 10%
User Freq
Pushing the inner knob lets you edit or add new memory frequencies. It is not 100% obvious – say you want to create a new frequency:
Scroll to the end of the list, where it says ADD. Push the inner knob. Then rotating the inner knob puts a character in the top line, and rotating the outer knob moves to the next character. Once you have created a name, press the inner knob and it will send you to the frequency field. Little knob for the first numbers, then big knob over to the little numbers. Press the little knob when the frequency looks ok. Then move the big knob to highlight SAVE, press the little knob, and done!
Working with Tim Larburg at Garmin, trying to get more RF squelch range. The only bad thing about this fine radio is it cannot squelch out the local interference off of 28 Right, and now on base leg over the golf course. Makes us deaf! See e-mail November 14, 2018.
2022 – no longer bothering to hook up the intercom ptt lines – the intercom is good enough on open mic, even in the Stearman with proper muffs on the microphones. (2023 – even in the 450 Stearman at full power!) Never a question about it in the open door Cubs.
We are running with about 85% squelch on the intercom –accessible just by pushing “menu”.
Handout for installed GTR-200 radios:
Note that the radio is turned on and off, and tuned/ flip-flopped just like radios in the 1970s. The flip-flop button is top right, and has arrows. Can’t miss.
But if you like an easier way, note the two buttons on the left – the ones with only a dash in the middle.
The bottom button is the most useful. Hit it once, and MYF ATIS will be ready to flip-flop.
Hit it more than once, and you will scroll through the list, which I will repeat below.
The top button is programmed to do more or less the same thing, except it requires you to twirl through frequencies with the small, inner knob on the right side. Its advantage is that you can get to, say, RNM rapidly. Its disadvantage is that you must “flip-flop” right away – it doesn’t stay there for more than five seconds.
The intercom is controlled by the MENU button – press it, and you will see a list on the left of the screen. Use the large knob, rotated clockwise until the intercom squelch is highlighted, then adjust that with the small inner knob. Note that volume is also selectable. To get out, depress the lower “dash” key on the left. Note that momentarily, the screen says “back” next to that key.
Radio squelch is the volume knob. Depress.
Installing these things gives FAA inspectors heartburn. They are not TSO, and my PMI thinks it is not legal to install non-TSO radios. He has yet to come up with even FAA guidance to that effect, let alone a rule.
But just in case, enter this in your logbook when installing one of these fine radios:
Removed _______, Installed Garmin GTR-200. No change in weight and balance: equipment list revised.
Garmin GTR-200 installed per Garmin GTR-200/200B Installation Manual. This unit meets RTCA DO186B, thus it meets TSO requirements.
Regulations for similar equipment (transponders) require only that the equipment meet TSO requirements. See 14 CFR 91.215 and Order 8300.16 CHG 1 App 1.10.
This installation is a minor alteration, requiring only acceptable data. See 14 CFR 1 and 14 CFR 43 App A. See also AC 20.67B.
Bob Turner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2018
- Messages
- 2,712
Sorry that is so long - it really is the simplest radio ever! Installation and programming! If you live in a high density area, the stored frequencies make life absolutely wonderful - and the intercom is simply the best I have ever used.
Tomorrow I will go in to the maintenance area, and make sure you have the proper keystrokes and knob turns - but you can simply turn the unit on and go fly without programming anything. Most of the above are factory set, anyway.
Tomorrow I will go in to the maintenance area, and make sure you have the proper keystrokes and knob turns - but you can simply turn the unit on and go fly without programming anything. Most of the above are factory set, anyway.
Desert7GCBC
Active member
OK. Thanks to all this careful research, my skeptical AI is on board with this. I'll order the radio this week.
Also, I just checked the ACA website. Yes, the Garmin GTR200B is the standard, factory-installed, com in their panels for new Explorer (7GCGC) aircraft.
https://www.americanchampionaircraft.com/instrument-panels
Also, I just checked the ACA website. Yes, the Garmin GTR200B is the standard, factory-installed, com in their panels for new Explorer (7GCGC) aircraft.
https://www.americanchampionaircraft.com/instrument-panels
Bob Turner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2018
- Messages
- 2,712
Before you order, consider Steinair. He is very personable, his wire is less expensive (same stuff) and his service cannot be beat. Last three units I installed came from him.
The only difference in the B model is "Bluetooth." If you cannot live without that, spend the extra $400.
I forgot to poke one into maintenance mode today. Tomorrow?
Stein doesn't have a template, because my customers order in their name. You will need short lengths of red and black 20 gauge for power/ground, maybe 40 feet of 24 ga. Shielded pair, and lots of plain old 22 or 24 gauge unshielded for PTT.
Get the non-stereo jacks, and four pairs of insulating washers for the jacks. Two PTT switches (expensive, but probably worth it) some shrink tube, and I strongly recommend an avionics switch.
Get all four ten foot lengths of shielded pairs ready - solder the shields together and crimp pins on. As you stick the pins into the connector, pay attention! Don't mix up signal and ground between headsets or mics.
Then label them. On installation you run them up the left pillar post, then trim to length before soldering the jacks to the wires. Shields are not grounded at the jacks.
Your old antenna BNC will screw right on.
Don't hesitate to ask - I drift through here daily.
The only difference in the B model is "Bluetooth." If you cannot live without that, spend the extra $400.
I forgot to poke one into maintenance mode today. Tomorrow?
Stein doesn't have a template, because my customers order in their name. You will need short lengths of red and black 20 gauge for power/ground, maybe 40 feet of 24 ga. Shielded pair, and lots of plain old 22 or 24 gauge unshielded for PTT.
Get the non-stereo jacks, and four pairs of insulating washers for the jacks. Two PTT switches (expensive, but probably worth it) some shrink tube, and I strongly recommend an avionics switch.
Get all four ten foot lengths of shielded pairs ready - solder the shields together and crimp pins on. As you stick the pins into the connector, pay attention! Don't mix up signal and ground between headsets or mics.
Then label them. On installation you run them up the left pillar post, then trim to length before soldering the jacks to the wires. Shields are not grounded at the jacks.
Your old antenna BNC will screw right on.
Don't hesitate to ask - I drift through here daily.
I 2nd the vote for steinair.com , I bought my avionics there and they were very helpful.