IAC Sportsman 2022 Known Sequence
- Thread starter Big Ed
- Start date
loopnroll
Member
Ed, This pretty makes it nearly impossible to perform this stuff in a low performance (Read Affordable and safe) acrobatic plane like my 7ECA. With the right airplane, you could do the 2 point to the split S but impossible in a Citabria or any plane that does not have an inverted system if you dont want to let the engine quit. In addition, as I am sure you are thinking, you have to carry too much speed to do the 2 points and therefore enter and then exist the split S too fast. I know I have heard of a guy in a clipped cub doing well in sportsman but I cant even do a roll coming out of a 180 deg competition turn since I am already down to about 80mph and roll entry speed is 120 (although I can do them slower). My opinion which will not count for much, I am sure, is that there should be a non-inverted equipped aircraft routine that could be quite complex if designed to recover speed. Maybe I am just not very good yet (which I already know) but this does not give me much to look forward to. There are a lot of interesting maneuvers you can do in a 7ECA. Clover Leaf or variation, 2 points after a hammer head, reverse cubans, humpties, loops, 1 point roll in the upline of a hammer or humpty with a direction correcting 1 or 2 point on the way down, Snap roll to a half reverse cuban and rolls. I could go on and on and these would not only look good but demand a lot of both airplane and pilot but you have to have an allowance or handicap for no inverted systems. I am not going to sacrifice my engine to get points in a contest.
I had a blast at my first contest last year in Ohio and I am looking forward to participating at 2 in MI and 1 in OH this year but it will be for the fun, comradery and experience and not for the points since I am at such a disadvantage against even the most basic inverted equipped plane.
I had a blast at my first contest last year in Ohio and I am looking forward to participating at 2 in MI and 1 in OH this year but it will be for the fun, comradery and experience and not for the points since I am at such a disadvantage against even the most basic inverted equipped plane.
with figure 8, wouldn't the goal be to start the 1/2 loop down as soon as the second point of the roll is complete? the point is, there wouldn't be much time inverted and if you pull power and load up the g's as you approach the point where you are pointed straight down, you might not be that fast at the bottom. haven't tried it yet, ymmv
loopnroll
Member
@Bartman It would be fun to have a conversation around how you fly your 7ECA in these types of maneuvers. To score points, you need to show level lines between each segment of a sequence so yes, you could pull as soon as you are inverted. Problem is coming out of Figure 7, you are at the top of a loop and doing an immelman at that point is hard enough in a 7ECA. In addition your exiting airspeed from that maneuver (7) is well below any reasonable speed where you could perform a 2 point roll with any precision. It is possible that you could get to 80-90mph after some level time after the immelman but do be safe in the split S, I would not want to be much over 80. It would also be hard to make your Split S round without going 0 G to round out the maneuver and the engine will quit. I may be wrong in that you have to have a level line after the 2 point as that may only be required between complete figures.
I am VERY new to competition and while I could attempt Sportsman, I could never score decently. Sharks tooth is impossible without engine quitting. Immelmans are sloppy, humpties are more like exclamation points (fun to do but not round), At least they have you going downhill after the competition turn.
But....Is that an inverted1 1/2 spin?
OR AM I JUST BEING A WIMP (WHIMP)?
I am VERY new to competition and while I could attempt Sportsman, I could never score decently. Sharks tooth is impossible without engine quitting. Immelmans are sloppy, humpties are more like exclamation points (fun to do but not round), At least they have you going downhill after the competition turn.
But....Is that an inverted1 1/2 spin?
OR AM I JUST BEING A WIMP (WHIMP)?
#3 has an upright entry so it is an upright 1 1/2 turn spin
let me ask about the 2 point roll prior to the split s
in some cases where the sequence is not optimized for your type, the safe way to proceed and still participate is to plan intentional breaks and accept that some figures won't be perfect. like the split s, take a loss for not doing a two point but don't miss out on participating.
let me ask about the 2 point roll prior to the split s
in some cases where the sequence is not optimized for your type, the safe way to proceed and still participate is to plan intentional breaks and accept that some figures won't be perfect. like the split s, take a loss for not doing a two point but don't miss out on participating.
loopnroll
Member
I plan on still competing. Fun, fun, fun and I will always learn more and get better.
I agree it looks like an upright spin but why is the dotted line RED?
I agree it looks like an upright spin but why is the dotted line RED?
Yes, that is how you fly it. No line after the roll, the radius starts immediately.
I am not a fan of pulling power. One of the first lessons you learn in competition is keep the power in, because power is energy. But in this case I think it will be nearly mandatory in our aircraft, because the nose is going to drop when you are in knife edge flight at very slow airspeed. I also would not be surprised to see some inverted spins from trying to keep the nose up while finishing the 2nd point of the roll.
i don't know if this will work but the king of 7ECA aerobatics is @Citabria.pt . Pedro, how would you do a 2 of 4 point roll to inverted followed quickly by a half loop down back to level if the entry spped was 80 or 90 mph?
Thanks! Any progress with your Citabria?
Thanks! Any progress with your Citabria?
So I posted a question to the aerobatics email exploder, it isn't an official IAC email chain but there are a lot of people there that are very active in contest aerobatics. It's free, you can sign up here;
acro.aerobaticsweb.org
For figure 8, I asked, "Have a question, for figure 8 in the 2022 sportsman known, it is 2 of 4 and then an inside half loop down. The half loop down is supposed to start as soon as the 2nd point is hit, right? there isn't supposed to be a line between the second point of the roll and the start of the half loop, or am i wrong."
DJ Molny, IAC Judges' Chair, replied, " There can be a brief pause between the second point and the start of the radius without penalty. "
Other replies were;
" 27.11 in the rulebook. 1 pt deduction if “longer than necessary” - which most judges think of as 1 plane length from hitting level - which means waiting until level and flying off before control input. "
" But you are not “Allowed” to draw a line – otherwise there is a penalty – so it’s only a “staccato” momentary delay "
The point is, if you do the two point roll and just as you stop the second point, inverted, and the engine signals it's shutting down, you should be releasing the nose to start it's move back below the horizon. If you've timed the Immelman to be on one end of the box and flew across the box to accelerate before the two-point roll, you might have 90 or 95 mph going into the roll and be around 80 as you start the half loop down. Pull power if you find the airspeed is still high as you're coming back to upright/level at the bottom of the half down loop. If you really have to throw the nose up because you're slower than you want to be as you start the two of four, if the CG continues on a horizontal path then you're doing what you have to do to make the figure work, IMHO. It doesn't have to be pretty and the judges should understand the nature of how the different aircraft have to fly the figures.
Ed, I know you've been taught to leave power at full through the whole sequence but there are a lot of aerobatic airplanes with fixed pitch props that just can't do that. Some with fixed pitch props will keep power at full and are ok exceeding redline airspeed and RPM but for our airplanes it would be considered abusive. If you're pusing 140 mph at the bottom of the Split S, and then again at the bottom of the loop, you're going to make it through the hammerhead and the roll to finish the sequence.
Disclaimer, I haven't done a Split S (roll inverted, pull to 1/2 inside downloop) yet in my 7ECA and it's been a while since I've rolled it because I've been working too much! But what would all y'all consider a safe entry speed to start the downloop part of the Split S?
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For figure 8, I asked, "Have a question, for figure 8 in the 2022 sportsman known, it is 2 of 4 and then an inside half loop down. The half loop down is supposed to start as soon as the 2nd point is hit, right? there isn't supposed to be a line between the second point of the roll and the start of the half loop, or am i wrong."
DJ Molny, IAC Judges' Chair, replied, " There can be a brief pause between the second point and the start of the radius without penalty. "
Other replies were;
" 27.11 in the rulebook. 1 pt deduction if “longer than necessary” - which most judges think of as 1 plane length from hitting level - which means waiting until level and flying off before control input. "
" But you are not “Allowed” to draw a line – otherwise there is a penalty – so it’s only a “staccato” momentary delay "
The point is, if you do the two point roll and just as you stop the second point, inverted, and the engine signals it's shutting down, you should be releasing the nose to start it's move back below the horizon. If you've timed the Immelman to be on one end of the box and flew across the box to accelerate before the two-point roll, you might have 90 or 95 mph going into the roll and be around 80 as you start the half loop down. Pull power if you find the airspeed is still high as you're coming back to upright/level at the bottom of the half down loop. If you really have to throw the nose up because you're slower than you want to be as you start the two of four, if the CG continues on a horizontal path then you're doing what you have to do to make the figure work, IMHO. It doesn't have to be pretty and the judges should understand the nature of how the different aircraft have to fly the figures.
Ed, I know you've been taught to leave power at full through the whole sequence but there are a lot of aerobatic airplanes with fixed pitch props that just can't do that. Some with fixed pitch props will keep power at full and are ok exceeding redline airspeed and RPM but for our airplanes it would be considered abusive. If you're pusing 140 mph at the bottom of the Split S, and then again at the bottom of the loop, you're going to make it through the hammerhead and the roll to finish the sequence.
Disclaimer, I haven't done a Split S (roll inverted, pull to 1/2 inside downloop) yet in my 7ECA and it's been a while since I've rolled it because I've been working too much! But what would all y'all consider a safe entry speed to start the downloop part of the Split S?
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As I'm thinking about this more, if your engine is quitting as you release the nose for the half loop down, you don't have to pull power. What remains to be seen is what combination of entry speed and g-loading will leave you at about 130 to 140 mph at the exit.
The issue to me is the nose drop during knife edge.
I was flying the Immelman followed by Split S, and exit speed was not a problem, BUT I really had to focus on keeping the nose up during the half roll at the start of the Split S. In my Decathlon, if I start the roll at 80 and let the nose drop, then I'm faster than 100 to start the pull through. Even with a very aggressive loading to 4.5G, with full power I was still coming out at 180mph, which is in the middle of the yellow arc. When I kept the nose high through the roll, speed was more under control and I was able to finish at 150-160mph, which is at the top of the green arc.
I question how feasible it will be to keep the nose high on knife edge at 80-90 mph during that 2 point roll. But I have not flown it, so will reserve judgement til then. Just seems like an unnecessary flourish. Methinks the good idea fairy got involved at the tail end of the process.
A friend of mine recommended I do an exercise where I roll to 90 degrees, stop, then roll back to the opposite 90 degrees without losing altitude or going off heading. With some practice I can do it but man it takes a good yank on the nose after starting the roll to get the nose up high enough to where I can then hold it there for a second with rudder before reversing to the opposite 90. If it isn't high enough as you roll past 45 degrees, you can't correct it with rudder. My annual inspection is done but now the plane is tied up for new engine mounts after we found the inside cowl was being scorched during acro. If I can get it flying again and find a string of a few days off I can get back in the air and play along here!
Ed, we should volunteer to sit on these IAC committees. I'd like to see how rules changes are made. You'd be perfect for the Sequence Committee.
Ed, we should volunteer to sit on these IAC committees. I'd like to see how rules changes are made. You'd be perfect for the Sequence Committee.
we posted at about the same time, sounds like two posts saying the same thing which makes me happy to know I'm figuring it out! 
thank for sharing that Ed.
thank for sharing that Ed.
Thanks, but I don't have the time to get the judging training. Without that knowledge, I don't think I have sufficient understanding to get involved in that.
That exercise sounds good, I will try that.
I understand if you're too busy.
For whoever might want to consider participating at contests as a Judge or Judging Assistant, there's a two day ground school. It has traditionally been done in person over a weekend but it was done online last year. Once you've done the class you are required to get a certain number of assists so the challenge is to be at contests and to make sure the volunteer coordinator knows you want to work on the Judges' Line assisting judges. But there are a lot of people trying to log the requisite assists so you might have to attend a few contests to get them all in. Once you've logged enough assists (each time you call the sequence for a judge it's one assist. as they watch the pilot fly the sequence you read the sequence card so the judge knows what they are watching as it's happening. some judges will ask for your input regarding the technical quality of the figures, some won't), you schedule an oral exam and if you pass it you become a Regional Judge first, then you can go on to qualify as a National Judge. It's fun, I recommend it!
For whoever might want to consider participating at contests as a Judge or Judging Assistant, there's a two day ground school. It has traditionally been done in person over a weekend but it was done online last year. Once you've done the class you are required to get a certain number of assists so the challenge is to be at contests and to make sure the volunteer coordinator knows you want to work on the Judges' Line assisting judges. But there are a lot of people trying to log the requisite assists so you might have to attend a few contests to get them all in. Once you've logged enough assists (each time you call the sequence for a judge it's one assist. as they watch the pilot fly the sequence you read the sequence card so the judge knows what they are watching as it's happening. some judges will ask for your input regarding the technical quality of the figures, some won't), you schedule an oral exam and if you pass it you become a Regional Judge first, then you can go on to qualify as a National Judge. It's fun, I recommend it!
Finally got my maintenance squawks sorted out and got up for some focused acro practice on the Immelman-Split S with 2/4 roll combo today.
It is doable in a Super D without coming off the power. But you really have to pay attention to the finer points to stay within speed and G limits. Even then, this is the result:
IMO this is unnecessary for Sportsman.
It is doable in a Super D without coming off the power. But you really have to pay attention to the finer points to stay within speed and G limits. Even then, this is the result:
IMO this is unnecessary for Sportsman.