8KCAB IFR Certification

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flyingskier

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Has anyone gone through the process of getting an IFR certification in their 8KCAB? I would appreciate any info you have on what it's like to go through the process. It seems to me that all of the required equipment is already onboard my '91.
 
At least one has. There is an STC for a specific N-number out there. So someone did something at some point that allowed it to happen. Field approval? Applying for an STC? I don't know.
 
The Type Certificate for the 8KCAB specifies VFR only. One guy figured out how to get an STC for IFR about 25 years ago, but that was expressly limited to one airplane. It is posted somewhere on this forum. Nobody else has figured out how to do it since. From what I have read, FAA policy on STC's has changed significantly over the years and it is highly unlikely anyone could pull it off now.

The Type Certificates for the 7CGBC and 8GCBC allow VFR and IFR.
 
Here is the one-time STC: STC for IFR Decathlon

EDIT: LOL, I just googled the name of the guy who got it. Ken Bowersox: Astronaut. 4 shuttle flights. And one Soyuz. 211 days in space.

Looks like he retired from NASA a few months before he got the STC, which he got from the FAA office in Fort Worth. Not far from Houston. Where the Astronauts are.

So if you think you have connnections in the FAA like this guy, give it a shot!!

800px-KenBowersox.jpg

STC.PNG
 
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@Big Ed if your career as an entrepreneur doesn't work out, you've got potential as a research librarian. fyi

props to Bowersox though, he probably had a personal T-38 Talon at his disposal with a fuel card paid for by us and he chose to jump the hoops necessary to get a Super Decathlon certified for IFR! i'd love to know what he was thinking!
 
Is this out of the realm of a field approval? Has the factory ever considered adding it?
 
I'm finding that one of the difficulties in getting an STC is that all equipment would need to work in all categories the aircraft is certified on. That means that my attitude indicator that tumbles during acro would not be approved as sufficient.
 
I can see how the 7GCBC can legally be flown IFR - it is a CAR4a aircraft, apparently. Where is the VFR restriction for the 8-series? Just in the Flight Manual? I think they got IFR for the 8GCBC, and it is aerobatic.
 
Additionally, while a heated pitot tube is not on the equipment list in part 91, it is a required item in part 23 which deals with the certification of aircraft. 23.1323 (d) "If certification for instrument flight rules or flight in icing conditions is requested, each airspeed system must have a heated pitot tube or an equivalent means of preventing malfunction due to icing."
 
Bob Turner said:
I can see how the 7GCBC can legally be flown IFR - it is a CAR4a aircraft, apparently. Where is the VFR restriction for the 8-series? Just in the Flight Manual? I think they got IFR for the 8GCBC, and it is aerobatic.
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The difference is not 7 vs 8, it is KCAB vs GCBC. It comes from the type certificate. The TC for the 7GCBC and 8GCBC say VFR and IFR. The TC for the 7KCAB and 8KCAB just say VFR. Because the KCAB is not type certificated for IFR, they cannot be made IFR by simply installing required items of equipment. You would have to replicate whatever testing and approval was required but not done for an IFR type certificate. Or be an astronaut.
 
Big Ed said:
The difference is not 7 vs 8, it is KCAB vs GCBC. It comes from the type certificate. The TC for the 7GCBC and 8GCBC say VFR and IFR. The TC for the 7KCAB and 8KCAB just say VFR. Because the KCAB is not type certificated for IFR, they cannot be made IFR by simply installing required items of equipment. You would have to replicate whatever testing and approval was required but not done for an IFR type certificate. Or be an astronaut.
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This is what the STC would/could do. you need to prove that the configuration that you have set up meets all the standards of certification required for certification. For us, under Part 23. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to install/alter everything that meets part 23 IFR requirements and receive an STC. They're not going to give out STCs that could be applicable to multiple aircraft (ie spin on oil filters) because there are too many variables in equipment setup.
 
flyingskier said:
There's no reason you shouldn't be able to install/alter everything that meets part 23 IFR requirements and receive an STC.
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That's where I think you are wrong. The FAA process for issuing an STC is pretty complex and involves substantial fight testing to prove the aircraft performs as required. They aren't going to just accept a list of installed equipment and assume it will work as designed. Here are the FAA steps for an STC:
  • Applicant applies for STC
  • Familiarization and preliminary type certification board (TCB) meetings
  • FAA develops certification program plan
  • Establishment of certification basis by FAA
  • Applicant submits data for approval
  • FAA design evaluation
  • FAA and applicant hold specialists and interim type certification meetings, as required
  • FAA performs conformity inspections
  • Engineering compliance determinations
  • Pre-flight TCB Meeting
  • Applicant performs ground inspections, ground tests, and flight tests
  • FAA reviews manufacturer's flight test results and issues TIA
  • FAA performs conformity inspections, witnesses tests, performs official certification flight tests and flight standards evaluations
  • Functional and reliability testing
  • FAA approves flight manual supplement or supplemental flight manual and holds final TCB meeting
  • AEG completes continuing airworthiness determination
  • FAA issues STC
 
Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think you are just going to be able to send them a list of equipment and poof you get an STC. You will absolutely have to go through that prices you just listed. My point is that there is no cutting edge flight testing and finite element analysis required to prove that there are no effects to flight safety. If you are willing to take the time to go back and forth with the FSDO it should work.
 
Everybody keeps referencing the type certificate: I asked multiple times on Facebook, I asked ACA, and no one has been able to point out where in the TCDS it states anything about VFR or IFR - directly. I read both 7 series and 8 series TCDS beginning to end, plus did a search for VFR, IFR, visual, instrument - and those words don't pop up at all in the TCDS. The 7 series states that Airplane Flight Manual's are required from 1979. The 8 series is interesting, as it lists flight manuals being required from 1971, and that placards listed in the flight manual must be displayed. As far as I could determine, all flight manuals for the 8 series list VFR flight only, and all flight manuals that I could find for Bellanca or ACA 7 series state VFR flight only. Note that the original Champion flight manuals (which weren't required anyway) do allow for IFR flight. So it's pretty clear that for all the 8 series, you're restricted to VFR because of the flight manual - which the TCDS requires (but not because the type certificate excludes IFR!). For the 7 series, it's more confusing: I'm confident all Champion models explicitly allow IFR, while the Bellanca planes restricted it in the flight manual - but if the flight manual wasn't required till 1979, not sure what that really means for pre '79 planes.


Also - if you search the facebook group (Citabria, Decathlon, Scouts) - you'll find info on people going through a field approval process, I think with one of the FISDO's around Wisconsin: there are multiple super decathlon's that were certified (i.e. allowed to remove the VFR only restriction from the manual). I bet the factory would be able to help who to contact to get this done.
 
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My information was second hand. I agree, I cannot see anything in the TCDS that references it, only the AFM. However, FAR part 23 states that FAA-approved AFM operating limitations are included in the TCDS certification basis.

As I read AC 25.1581-1 para 2.b.9, the TCDS specifies approval status by category, while the AFM specifies eligibility for kinds of operations if appropriately equipped:
(9) Kinds of Operations. This subsection should contain a statement similar to the following:
This airplane is certificated in the transport category and is eligible for the following kinds of operations when the appropriate instruments and equipment required by the airworthiness and operating requirements are installed and approved and are in operable condition.​
The approval status of the following should be stated:
(a) Operation in atmospheric icing conditions.​
(b) Extended over-water operation.​
(c) Extended range operation with two-engine airplanes (ETOPS).​
(d) Day and night operations under visual flight rules (VFR).​
(e) Operations under instrument flight rules (IFR).​
(f) Backing the airplane with reverse power or thrust.​
(g) Category I, II, or III operations.​
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I have also seen social media claims it has been done, but have not seen any concrete evidence to that fact, other than Astronaut Bowersox. Everything else has been "there was a guy at my old airport" kind of stuff. If you have found a post on social media by someone with first hand corroboration of a successful approval or an ongoing application, please post a link. I would love to see it done, and I would be first in line to follow.

Dale Gauger has been asked directly on Facebook several times. His answer has been consistent: 8GCBC yes, 8KCAB no. IMO if anyone knows, he does. If you are determined to press the issue, I would call him directly.
 
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After this thread made its first lap around the site I ran into someone and we were talking about STC's. Apparently, getting a "one-only STC" isn't that hard, there are far fewer hoops to jump through and your local FSDO can probably help you to identify what your path forward should look like. If you really want to do it, the one-only STC is probably the way to do it.

it's not much but the FAA considers the one-only path a variant of the STC process

Supplemental Type Certificates

www.faa.gov www.faa.gov

Here's the FAA's guidance;
For information regarding the supplemental type certificate application process, contact the FAA Aircraft Certification Office (ACO) in your geographic area. The “Application Guide for Obtaining a Supplemental Type Certificate,” and other related advisory, policy and guidance information is available on the STC Regulations & Policies page. You must use FAA Form 8110.12 when submitting the application for the STC to the FAA.

For information regarding the "One-only" supplemental type certificate application process involving non U.S. registered aircraft, where the U.S. is the State of design, see Order 8110.4, paragraph 4-15c.
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I suppose you can start reading here :sleep::sleep::sleep:
 
This is copy pasted from the Facebook post by Mark Wittmayer on the topic (after he did a one off IFR modification for his GCAA).

"When I had questions about my 7GCAA’s IFR certification, I did the following:
- I first called my local FSDO in Orlando. They said that they really didn’t know about this type of aircraft and IFR certification. They then told me to call the Aircraft Certification Office (ACO) in Atlanta.
- I called the Atlanta ACO and they were very nice but said that they would prefer I ask about such an aircraft with the FSDO up in Milwaukee because they are the experts with American Champion aircraft.
- I called the Milwaukee FSDO serving ACA and they referred me over to one of their people named Peter Corrao. So I called and chatted with Peter. This guy is the real deal and knows what he’s talking about. I would suggest you write or call him. Here’s his office contact info:
Peter Corrao
Aviation Safety Inspector
Milwaukee Flight Standards
District Office
[email protected]
414-486-2952
Peter may even be able to run your IFR paperwork, such as a 337 or single aircraft STC, through at his office for approval.
As a further reference, there is an 8KCAB Super Decathlon owner named Ken Bowersox, (retired astronaut, nice guy) who got his airplane IFR certified with an ACO. I chatted with him and here’s what he had to say about it:
I applied for a single aircraft STC with the closest FAA Aircraft Certification Office – not a FSDO…
Helps to call them first and that can take a little time before you get one of their engineers on the phone.
Once you’re application is in the system, the ACO will assign a rep to your case.
The ACO rep has a lot of flexibility in what they can approve. My rep required equipment that was beyond the equipment for an IFR 7GCBC – which can be factory certified.
In addition to pitot heat, gyros, lights and IFR instrumentation, was required to do the following:
Add a standby static source
Add a second attitude reference
Install new limitations decals that included IFR flight
Test the current draw of all the electrical equipment, and verify the installed battery could power the systems for the required amount of time in an emergency.
Assemble a flight manual supplement which listed minimum required equipment for the STC and new operating limitations, which included IFR operations.
Once the rep had a chance to inspect my airplane and sign off on all the paperwork, the FAA granted an STC which modified the operating limitations from the original type certificate to allow IFR flight.
Well I hope this all helps. Good luck!"
 
Thanks. I found the discussion. That is by far the most definitive discussion I have seen. It also includes several comments by Jerry Melhalf, the owner of ACA about the legalities of the situation.

Here is another post by Marc Wittmayer in the same discussion. This states that he got his approval from ACA in the form of a modified AFM.

The answer to your first question is YES, a 1998 7GCAA can be upgraded for IFR. I have a 2000 7GCAA that is essentially the same as a 1998 model. I took it to the ACA factory and had them install equipment to bring it up to their specifications for IFR certification. This consisted of two Garmin G5's for ATT and HSI, a Garmin GTN 650 for GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD, a Garmin GTX 345 Transponder, a Garmin GMA 345 audio panel, and an Aero Instruments AN5812-12V Heated Pitot Tube. I purchased a Comant CI-2580-200 ComDat VHF/GPS WAAS Antenna so I would only have a single spike antenna on the airplane's back. ACA installed this too. When all the work was done, ACA issued me a new FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual Rev B, dated 18 April 2006, applying to 7GCAA aircraft serial numbers 400-97 and up, that specifically approves "Normal Category Day or Night IFR operation". The cost of all of the IFR gear along with installation was about 35K. (The heated pitot alone was about 5.3K for parts and labor.) I've attached some before and after photos.
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It is unclear from rhis post whether he got the ACA action instead of FAA approval, or in addition to FAA approval. Also unclear as to how or why the 8KCAB would differ.
 
After reading his posts more closely, here is the part most relevant to our discussion:
When all the work was done, ACA issued me a new FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual Rev B, dated 18 April 2006, applying to 7GCAA aircraft serial numbers 400-97 and up, that specifically approves "Normal Category Day or Night IFR operation".
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A few inferences/conclusions from that comment:

1. The enabling document for his IFR status is the AFM, not the TC.
2. Because an FAA-approved AFM for his aircraft exists which allows IFR operations, he did not need a one time STC or other FSDO/ACO approval.
3. No such AFM exists for the 8KCAB, so this path is not viable.

Unfortunately that puts us back at square one. The only known and publicly cited example to date of successful Decathlon IFR approval was by an Astronaut.

Maybe it would be equally easy if someone else tried it. I suspect the reality is closer to asking Tom Brady how hard it is to get extra super bowl tickets. "It's easy, you just call the Bucs sales manager and he finds you some."
 
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