Let's Talk About Aileron Rolls

Bartman

Bartman

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Went out yesterday to try my first solo roll, got turned back by a hazy, obscured horizon. :(

Anything mysterious about it other than roll as fast as you can? :)

In the 2020 Primary sequence the placement of the aileron roll is at the end right after a 180 degree competition turn leaving the airplane at about 90 mph at the start of the roll. Now that is a slow roll!
 
I may have this wrong - I think an aileron roll is - 120 mph, pitch up 30 degrees, left aileron and rudder until rightside up. I personally add a touch of forward stick while inverted.

I find slow rolls way more challenging.

I assume you have practiced with an instructor. I am self-taught, and found it not to be a good idea. Never add back pressure while inverted.
 
My POH says 130 mph entry speed. Patty Wagstaff video says pitch up 20 degrees or so and initiate full aileron in the direction you want to roll...and don't touch the rudder pedals. Haven't tried it yet.
 
I will try the no rudder version today and report back. Never heard that before. Can't hurt anything, I guess.

My friend AC, who built his own Christen Eagle and who had a low level waiver, said I had the wrong nomenclature. He said what I called a slow roll was really an aileron roll.

Here is what I call a slow roll:
Roll in from level flight, slowly and coordinated. Immediately feed in top rudder until you have lots in knife edge. Once inverted you keep rolling but rudder is reversed as you leave the horizontal, and then again feed in top rudder.

The nose should describe a tight little circle on the horizon.

For me, this is the most difficult maneuver to get right. It is harder than a four point roll, since I tend to rush the second half. Do these with six quarts of oil - at 5 1/2, you will see excessive delay in pressure buildup, both inverted and right side up.

I cannot help with barrel rolls. I did one once, in a contest, and it must have been ok; I got third place. And I no longer do loops - the very first aero maneuver I learned (on my PP checkride).
 
I have great respect for Patty's abilities. Besides, she is a fox! But she must have been talking about a Pitts.

The Decathlon/Citabria have way too much adverse yaw. With rudders neutral the roll was quite sloppy, slower, and worst of all the nose was low while inverted. Not a good way to roll a Champ.

I was only good for six today - I usually do six slow rolls and two aileron rolls. Today three aileron rolls and I was done.
 
If Bob hadn't mentioned it yet, I was going to. The first aileron roll I tried in a Citabria was aileron only. The initial roll rate is slow, it's sloppy and as Bob notes, even entering it 30 degrees nose up, you end up with the nose well below the horizon as you dish out the bottom.
 
As my Citabria is still at the mechanic's shop I can only speak for how I was taught in a Great Lakes 2T-1A-2. Speed actually sounds the same for both planes but would do a small dive to 120 or so MPH and then pitch up 30ish degrees and go full aileron direction in the desired roll direction with some rudder thrown in. Some interesting notes from that was I have also read about doing "ballistic rolls" with no rudder but these rolls were always slower and sloppier in the Great Lakes than when done with rudder so beyond having me do one or two of those first that was the last time I did that during my training. No forward stick/elevator was ever used in the many aileron rolls I did, that was reserved for the more technical "slow" roll. Another technique I was taught was to start the roll with rudder to counter adverse yaw then release the rudder till I was past the inverted flight position and reintroduce it in knife edge as that would help keep the nose up since it is essentially an elevator at that point. Oh and one other "trick" I read about online was adding a touch of nose down trim before starting the roll and that should help keep the nose up during the inverted portion. Looking forward to the days I can start trying this stuff out in my 7KCAB 🙃
 
And just as a visual comparison of a slow roll to an aileron roll here are the two clips from the recordings I took during my training, hopefully the self promotion is okay in these parts!



Notice how with the slow roll since it utilizes all of the controls allows for the nose to stay pinned on the horizon where as the aileron roll using just rudder and aileron follows a helical path and creates a circle around the horizon. This is the difference between the two. Also worth pointing out with a slow roll you will experience negative G where as with an aileron roll you get a little light in the seat but at no point go into the negatives.
 
Slow roll is a competition maneuver. Aircraft flight path is level and straight, with no altitude gain or loss and no deviation from heading. Requires constantly changing inputs to rudder and elevator. Don’t get confused by term “slow” ... full aileron deflection is used. G’s vary from positive to negative one. You can practice slow rolls for years to master the timing of control inputs.

Aileron roll is not a competition maneuver, so you can do what you want. Simplest method is pitch up 30 degrees, neutralize elevator, then full aileron deflection. No rudder necessary. If initial pitch up is sufficient, recovery will happen at straight and level flight, with G’s varying from one to zero. If initial pitch up is insufficient, greater Gs may be felt in pull out from resulting dive.

Barrel roll also not a competition maneuver. Begin pitch up, then add aileron while holding elevator in. Use rudder to stay coordinated a la Bob Hoover. G’s vary between positive one and two, depending on technique.
 
My version of slow roll does not require full aileron. The slower the roll, the more skill required. Everything else Ed says I agree with.

Barrel roll was in my Sportsman sequence in 1976.
 
Here are the IAC descriptions:

Aerobatic Figures | International Aerobatic Club

DISCLAIMER: These descriptions are NOT intended as instruction. No pilot should attempt to fly any of these figures in aircraft not certified for aerobatic flight. Further, no pilot should attempt these figures without training from a competent aerobatic instructor.
www.iac.org www.iac.org
 
I really never paid attention to exactly how much aileron I use in slow rolls. Today the answer is - not very much. I adjust it for the desired roll rate, which seems to require different amounts in different quadrants. I am very busy with rudder and elevator.

I always do a four point hesitation roll as my third exercise. I was really amazed with how little aileron is used to stop and re-start the roll.
 
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