Paperwork for Mounting Federal A-2000A Shis on 7ECA

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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Howdy form Northern Maine,

I just recently acquired a very nice set of Straight Federal A-2000A skis for my 1972 7ECA Citabria.

My bird is undergoing annual inspection, and would like to install these while it is in the shop and since we now have a nice usable snow covered runway.

I am doing a bunch of research so the IA does not need to go looking, eating up his time and my money. So, does anyone know of, or have Federal A-2000A skis installed on their Citabria?

I am in need of advise where to acquire paperwork for the installation and/or drawings where to anchor cables? I see on other makes of ski's that they are attached to the "U" Bolt where the gear leg attaches to the fuselage. I have "Spring Steel" legs on my bird.

Any advice, or just point me in the direction of who to contact to get what I need for paperwork would be greatly appreciated. Should be straight forward once I know what to do.

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys Air Ranch (84ME)
 

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Tangogawd

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the 7eca is a ski plane on the type cert, therefore, any wheel replacement ski, IAW AC43.13, is approved, that includes your skis. I used federal 2500 on my 7eca and they performed extremely well. I have always used tabs to the "U" bolts. look at aero skis stc..... I think its available online...... But following AC 43.13 will get you there.
 

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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the 7eca is a ski plane on the type cert, therefore, any wheel replacement ski, IAW AC43.13, is approved, that includes your skis. I used federal 2500 on my 7eca and they performed extremely well. I have always used tabs to the "U" bolts. look at aero skis stc..... I think its available online...... But following AC 43.13 will get you there.
Good Morning,

That sounds like a plan. I see Wipline has taken Fluidyne, which was Federal Skis at one time. At least that is what I have read.

My skis came off a Champ, so they should work well on my 7ECA, and I have the rigging with brackets which I should be able to reuse the brackets and hooks, etc.

I know I have to replace the Bungees or Springs, and cables to fit my gear. Now I have to find some longer gear attachment bolts to ad the space of the ski brackets. I think the Aluminum gear attachment bolts are longer?

Any thoughts on Springs vs Bungees?

Thanks for the advise. Will post results once it get the bird back in the air and such.

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys Air Ranch (84ME)
 

Tangogawd

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You can try doing away with the washer on the gear bolt head. But If you have NAS bolts, you HAVE to ensure that the bracket is chamfered so as not to damage the bolt. You could also determine what length bolt you need and order the approximate size.

Springs vs Bungees..... I have hard real preference, except for springs last a LOT longer. bungees you can expect to change every few years due to stretch and UV damage. Springs are not effected but for physical damage, and therefore will likely last the entire time you own the skis. Some have said not to run springs on leaf spring gear due to vibration and such, but I have run springs on all my planes, scouts, 7GCBC, 7ECA, and my C180, because the STC for my skis called for springs, and I have never had, nor seen anyone else have an issue. When I tension the spring cable, I stick to the bottom end of the range to limit toe-in issues.

Skis are damn near as fun as floats! you are going to love it!

If you haven't gotten one, I recommend looking for a tail ski as well. Citabria tails are heavy, and your 7ECA, hell, my Scout, didn't make enough power to really pick it up in deep snow.

Does not look like you have UHMW on your ski bottoms. A future recommendation is to install UHMW, and oversize the sides by 2 to 3 inches. It'll give you much better float, and slide better.
 

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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You can try doing away with the washer on the gear bolt head. But If you have NAS bolts, you HAVE to ensure that the bracket is chamfered so as not to damage the bolt. You could also determine what length bolt you need and order the approximate size.

Springs vs Bungees..... I have hard real preference, except for springs last a LOT longer. bungees you can expect to change every few years due to stretch and UV damage. Springs are not effected but for physical damage, and therefore will likely last the entire time you own the skis. Some have said not to run springs on leaf spring gear due to vibration and such, but I have run springs on all my planes, scouts, 7GCBC, 7ECA, and my C180, because the STC for my skis called for springs, and I have never had, nor seen anyone else have an issue. When I tension the spring cable, I stick to the bottom end of the range to limit toe-in issues.

Skis are damn near as fun as floats! you are going to love it!

If you haven't gotten one, I recommend looking for a tail ski as well. Citabria tails are heavy, and your 7ECA, hell, my Scout, didn't make enough power to really pick it up in deep snow.

Does not look like you have UHMW on your ski bottoms. A future recommendation is to install UHMW, and oversize the sides by 2 to 3 inches. It'll give you much better float, and slide better.
Howdy,

Thanks for the advice. A good friend who is a Cub Pilot is willing to do an exchange with me, his Landis L2000A Skis with Plastic Bottoms (UHMW) or whatever it is called is newly installed on them.

I will still need the rigging and call Airglas for an STC to install them on my 7ECA. But I would have to design a set of Dollie's for moving from the hangar, across the Tarmac to the unplowed runway, remove the dollies, then taxi onto snow and take off from there.

I am looking for a Tail Ski as you suggested. I better make sure there is a STC that fits the Tail Ski to the Scott 3200 Tailwheel. Just the right amount of snow here right now, but nothing to fly on skis. Still in Annual. :(

Thanks again for the advice.

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys Air Ranch (84ME)
 

Tangogawd

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If it where me, I'd keep the federals, and UHMW the bottoms. I don't know the weight of the airglas 2000 but the 3000s weighed a ton. I bet you would have a much lighter ski keeping the feds.

Aero makes tail skis that are STC'd. Burl's tailski is a favorite here in AK, but it is spendy.
 

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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If it where me, I'd keep the federals, and UHMW the bottoms. I don't know the weight of the airglas 2000 but the 3000s weighed a ton. I bet you would have a much lighter ski keeping the feds.

Aero makes tail skis that are STC'd. Burl's tailski is a favorite here in AK, but it is spendy.
Howdy,

My Federal Skis with rigging weigh just about #21 without the UHMW installed per side.

The Landis weigh about #28 w/ Rigging as stated on the web page, but I will have to weigh them before i make a decision. Might be more weight as these have the UHMW installed.

But, still no luck finding a STC for the Federal A-2000A skis as of yet on my 7ECA. Still looking. Feds tell me that they are NOT doing any Field Approvals of Any tTpe at this time, and have not done any for several years now. :(

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys Air Ranch (84ME)
 

Tangogawd

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You do not need an STC, or field approval to install these skis.

According to the type certificate, A-759, the 7ECA is approved for

item 203 (k) FluiDyne Model A-2000-A (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1281) (Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC) Main skis only.

This makes the 7ECA, a certified ski plane.

Right from AC43.13-2B, Chapter 5 for skis it states:

500. PURPOSE. This chapter provides information
for ski installations on small airplane. The
information provided for main ski and nose ski
installations applies to wheel replacement skis only.

And

503. INSTALLATION CONSIDERATIONS.
a. Determining Eligibility of an Airplane.
Only an airplane approved for operation on skis is
eligible for ski installations in accordance with this
chapter. Eligibility can be determined by referring
to the Aircraft Specifications, type certificate data
sheets (TCDS), Aircraft Listing, Summary of
Supplemental Type Certificates, or by contacting the
manufacturer.

Long story short, you can install ANY wheel-replacement ski (straight ski) on any small plane that has been certified as a ski plane. This would only require an A&P to make the rigging, update the W&B, and fill out the log book entry.
 

Tangogawd

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Sorry, I don't mean to push here.

The FAA should not be issuing field approvals for such things anyways.... because they have already given approval, via AC43.13. A good FAA inspector (if there are any left) would know this and simply refer you to the all ready approved data.

I'll be home in NH for the holidays. If I had a chance to come visit, I'd be happy to make the appropriate entries for you.
 

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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Sorry, I don't mean to push here.

The FAA should not be issuing field approvals for such things anyways.... because they have already given approval, via AC43.13. A good FAA inspector (if there are any left) would know this and simply refer you to the all ready approved data.

I'll be home in NH for the holidays. If I had a chance to come visit, I'd be happy to make the appropriate entries for you.
Howdy,

Just got a Email from Wipaire, stating that they dfinately "Do Not Need a STC". Not questioning the advice I receive on here, but my IA has issues unless it is written "EXACTLY" to meet the install, and I can not sign off anything. Everyone has their own way to decide if something is legal or not.

Some folks (IA/A&P) have got burned in the past from the FAA and are Gun-Shy! You can not blame them.

Any ideas on installing UHMW? Where to purchase, Paperwork needed, Etc?

Now I need to find an approved Tail wheel Ski. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks for all the advice !!! I really appreciate it.

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys Air ranch (84ME)
 

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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Howdy Again,

Now that I have the "Go Ahead" to legally mount the Federal A-2000A skis on my plane, I need to make the rigging. I need a set of American Champion Drawing 7-1281 Rev.A Dated 1/5/66 (This is what ACA told me in a Email).

So, do I need to need these drawings in my hand to have my IA/A&P install the skis and make up cables, or can he just wing it?

I want to have all my ducks in a row so when he returns, this will be a quick install and sign off along with my Annual Inspection.

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys Air Ranch (84ME)
 

Bartman

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ask ACA if that drawing is available for purchase from them. drawings are usually in the $50 to $75 range when they are available.

good luck!
 

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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ask ACA if that drawing is available for purchase from them. drawings are usually in the $50 to $75 range when they are available.

good luck!
Good Morning,

ACA Emailed me that they have the drawings for $70.00, which i do not have a problem supporting the Manufacturer (ACA). I just need to talk to my IA first as he may already have a copy of them. Unfortunately, he is away a few more weeks.

But the question is, "Do I need to have a copy in my paperwork? Also, I am thinking of changing to the springs and deleting the bungees on the skis. Most likely I will purchase springs from Atlee Dodge, but do they supply the drawings along with the STC and springs?

I am contacting them this week for a price. One fella told me that it is around $200 for the spring setup.

This is just a work in progress.

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys ir Ranch (84ME)
 

Bartman

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i don't think you need to have the drawing, it just depends on how confident you and your IA are doing it without the drawing.
 

Cowboys Air Ranch 84ME

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i don't think you need to have the drawing, it just depends on how confident you and your IA are doing it without the drawing.
Howdy,

I do have the drawing for installing these A-2000A Skis on a Champ. The drawings show the angles of the skis and the length of the bungees from fully retracted pulling tight on rear cables, to fully extended pulling tight on the front cable. The difference is tht the Champ has Oleo Gear and Not spring gear.

Should be easy to construct from these drawings I already have, but I want to make sure it is done correctly and legal.

Ken "COWBOY" Winiarski
Cowboys Air Ranch (84ME)
 

Skymarc

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Were can you buy these springs for skis? I have bungees and wouldn't mind replaced them with springs.

Also were do I find if there is any straight skis approved on the Scout type certificate?
 

Bartman

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I'm not sure about the springs but if you go to the tech data sub-forum you'll find the TCDS for the Scout. In it will be equipment that is approved for use with the airframe.

The FAA's cover sheet is pretty helpful for understanding the TCDS if you've never read it before.