8KCAB Park a Decathlon on the Ramp?

dedaaru

dedaaru

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
7
All,

There are no hangars available anywhere near me and I really want a Decathlon. The general wisdom around me seems to be that you cannot leave a fabric covered aircraft on the ramp. Are there any workarounds or ways to park one on the ramp?

Thanks in advance!

K
 
Facts vs fiction fabric airplanes sit outside all over the country but if you have the ability by all means park them under cover. The main issue is the sun damage if they are Hangered the fabric last a great deal longer, but with the Fabric today you should have 20 years out in the weather. Then recover.
 
Dedaaru;

My experience differs widely from Bruce's.

Yes you CAN park a fabric covered aircraft outside, but it will deteriorate very quickly This extends beyond the fabric - although the fabric is a major concern given cost of R &/or R. I worked with an A&P through the 80's and 90's and into the early 00's. We were in Georgia and I can tell you the sun at that latitude will eat up even the best fabric job quickly. We also noticed increased rot and wear in wooden parts in aircraft kept outside.

That being said, if you want one badly enough, and either have a huge maintenance budget or plan on selling it frequently and replacing it, you may find the impact manageable. I will also note that an aircraft known to have been parked on the ramp usually fetched a considerably lower price at sale than a comparable aircraft that had been hangared.

I would advise against it as too risky - even if theoretically possible. I am always concerned that the fleet is dwindling each year and we need to do all we can to keep every airworthy aircraft airworthy so as not to thin the heard to the point of being non-viable. If you do choose to do this, just be aware the clock is ticking every day you leave it outside. I wouldn't be comfortable doing it - just from a risk perspective. But I'm very conservative financially.

I support your preferred plane choice strongly and I hope you can find a way to make it work. Just please don't leave it outside. Perhaps there's another field within reasonable driving distance? Maybe a farmer will let you use his field? Get creative; there's got to be a solution out there somewhere.
 
Fabric can stand UV quite well. My concern is water ingress coming in through any penetration of the fabric. Just look at the wing root fairings if you want a lesson in how not to make something water tight.
Rusty tubes and rotten wood are the problem with outside plane storage.
Get on a hangar wait-list and then get a good cabin cover that goes out over the fuel caps, over the boot cowl and also over the beacon (or ELT antenna if that's what you have behind the wing).
 
Agree. Parking outside is ok, although not optimum. My Cub sat outside 15 of the last 40; finish still shines! 20 years is minimum, absent hail or tornadoes. Save $300/month x 240 months = enough to recover!
 
Folks thanks a ton for the responses. See where I'm torn is that as bad as I want one, Northern Virginia is horrible, the wait list is crazy. Nothing available for atleast 2+ years in a 2-3 hr drive radius. Assuming I do find a spot on the outer fringes of this area, I'm afraid I won't get around to flying the plane that much :(

I guess I've to think some more.
 
There are a few different issues with leaving a 7 or 8 series aircraft outside:

1) Water will enter around the wing root fairings and it will rot the formers in that area and the stringers aft of that area.

2) You'll also have a much greater problem with corrosion in the lower fuselage tubes in the tail.

3) Polyester fabric, whether it is Ceconite, Polyfiber, or Superflight degrades with exposure to UV radiation. After a sealer is applied to the fabric, and before the top coat(s) are applied, filler coats are applied that contain either aluminum or chemicals designed to block UV radiation. Those filler coats are what protect the fabric from UV radiation. How well they protect the fabric depends on process used and how well it was applied. However, even if it was perfectly done, even the best fabric system will not last nearly as long if the aircraft is left exposed in the open.

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So you certainly *can* leave a Decathlon outside, but it's not a good idea and you'll eventually pay for it with higher annual maintenance and a much earlier recover the aircraft, with more issues to fix when you do the recover. It also matters whether you plan on keeping it long term, where cheaper ties down fees versus hangar rent might offset some of the recover/rebuild costs, or you plan to sell it in a few years, where you'll take a greater hit in resale value because of the time it has spent outdoors.

It might be worth exploring whether you can get a long term lease at a smaller outlying airport and then construct a T hangar, or find the owner of a private airstrip and make a similar arrangement.
 
Thanks all for your time and answers. Invaluable inputs. I'll explore these ideas and see what I can come up with.
 
The next response I will give is we have t hangers at my field, I have been on the list for several years then one day they turned over 3 spots now I’m number 1 for a t hanger. That being said I waited 14 years to get a tie down spot I can build a hanger on, point being you have to get on the list and one may open up sooner than later. But if the spot opens you have to be ready to take it. But get your plane now if all you are worried about is resale well why do you want a plane? I like owning my own never a conflict but it will cost more then a rental. Thanks to all for the response.
 
I'm on a few waiting lists (hope's eternal I guess), the real issue with parking on the ramp to me is safety. Don't want to pick up a SuperDec and keep it on the ramp only to have it run into issues and impact my ability to fly it when I want to. Obviously owning a plane is going to be more expensive especially cause with a Decathlon I do not intend to lease it to a school etc. The reason to own is two fold, a) learn the boundaries of the flight envelope and b) be able to fly into all kinds of fields. Being able to fly it when I want to fly it also brings about the challenge of me being close to wherever the plane is located. So all kinds of variables in the equation I guess. Will figure it out one of these days. Again, you all have been very gracious with your time and inputs! Thanks
 
I'm surprised nobody mentioned covers. You can get a complete set of covers that would protect the wings, the fuselage, and tail feathers from moisture and UV. They're something of a pain in the arse to put on and take off but if it's temporary until a hangar is available then they might not be such a bad idea. Also, if you're flying it often, you might be able to avoid corrosion in the fuselage tubes because the airflow during flight will help to dry it out.

Hangars are definitely better but a hard surface tie-down with full covers (or at least a full cabin cover that will protect the wing to fuselage joint from letting water in) might be ok for a year or two.

Good luck!
 
Bruce raises a good point about what happens when your name comes up on a waitlist. In Greenville for example, when your name comes up, you only have 5 days to have your aircraft in the hangar, which pretty much means you need to already own an aircraft.

That's unfortunate for ragwing aircraft owners as leaving them out in the elements has a lot more cost to it than it does for the owner of the average spam can.

Another thing to consider is getting a full set of wing, fuselage and tail covers for it. They'll keep the sun and rain off most of it. The downside is that in high winds the hold down straps have been known to actually saw through a wing. But at least that'll be covered by your insurance as storm damage.

----

When it comes to owning versus renting I am of the opinion that, provided you can afford to own an aircraft in the first place, the total cost per month will be the same - you'll just fly more, unless you fly less than 4-5 hours per month.

Let's say your hangar costs $200 per month, your insurance costs $100 per month and annual inspections cost you $1200 per year for the inspection and normal/minor maintenance. That's $400 per month whether you fly it or not, and that's assuming you own it outright and are not making principle and interest payments. (Those reflect my costs, yours will vary).

Let's say it costs you $175 per hour (wet) to rent a 150 hp fixed pitch Decathlon. The $400 fixed costs equate to 2.3 hours you could have logged as a renter, before you even get in the plane as an owner. (For a Super D, you're probably looking at $200 per hour wet.)

On the other hand, if you own the aircraft, your hourly costs depend on how often you fly.

If you average about 9 gph for fuel burn with an AEIO-320, and you are paying $4.50 per gallon of avgas, you'll be spending about $40 per hour for gas, plus maybe $3 per hour for oil. That's roughly $43 per hour in direct operating costs.

You'll need to put away money every hour to cover a $20K engine overhaul and if you've bought a mid time engine with maybe 1000 hours left on it, then that's $20 per hour you need to sock away. Add another $20 per hour for unexpected maintenance. We're up to about $83 per hour at this point.

You'll need to factor in an eventual recover, and that'll depend on the current condition of the fabric and paint, whether you can hangar it or not, whether you do the recover work yourself and get it signed off, or have it done locally, or have it done by ACA. Figure $20 per hour for an aircraft with recent fabric that lives in a hangar. Now we're at roughly $103 per hour, plus the $400 fixed costs.

If you fly 5 hours per month, that's a total of $915, and $183 per hour. That's slightly more expensive than renting, and you carry more risk in the form of being on the hook for any unexpected maintenance. On the other hand, you can fly whenever you want to with no worries about scheduling conflicts and you can take the plane on a trip for a week or two with no issues.

However, if you fly 10 hours per month, that's a total cost per month of $1400 and an hourly cost of only $140 per hour. At this point you are saving about $35 per hour and $350 per month compared to renting - plus pride of ownership and freedom to fly whenever the conditions allow. I'd argue 10 hours per month is also about the minimum number of hours you should be flying - otherwise your airplane is mostly just sitting and corroding - especially when it's out on the ramp, with greater temperature changes and more moisture working on the interior surfaces of your engine, etc.

If you fly 20 hours per month, the total cost is down to $123 per hour. You're now saving about $50 per hour and about $1040 per month. That's a lot flying, unless you are very well off, or are earning some money with the aircraft.

----

If you just count the fixed and direct costs, plan on turning the aircraft back into money in a few years, and you consequently ignore the overhaul and recover costs, the cost per hour is obviously lower. You just need to get out at the right time so you don't take a big hit on the resale of an aircraft with a high time engine, bad fabric and a whole lot of deferred maintenance the not overly motivated buyer will have to cover with a correspondingly low sales price. And again being out on the ramp will hurt you a lot more in that scenario.

If you are flying the same 10 hours per month with the same $400 fixed costs and just $43 per hour direct costs, then your hourly costs - in the short run and barring unexpected maintenance issues - is just $83 per hour. If you plan to buy, put a few hundred hours on the aircraft over the next 2.5 years and then sell it in similar condition to what you bought it in for similar money, then you *might* be saving $90 per hour or so compared to renting - and that's a $27,000 savings over 300 hours/2.5 years. But again, being out on the ramp for that 2.5 years will have an impact on the resale value.

Still, if you buy a Decathlon for maybe $80K and then sell it for only $55K with some paint/fabric and deferred maintenance issues 2.5 years and 300 hours later, you're still not losing money compared to renting for the same 300 hours.
 
Let me share some of the number's I've been playing with here. Hanger rentals at my local airport start @ $600-700 per month (yep). 100LL is about $5.75 Per Gallon (yep) and everything else is day light robbery as well. Now, if (and that's a huge if), I were to find a hangar about an hour away (that's already 2 hours of driving that I could have been flying), the above numbers would add up (more or less). I could always find a way to temporarily tie down a plane locally and go drop it off in the hangar when the Wx is about to get bad etc., or if I'm not planning to fly the plane for a bunch etc. I am on the list at that other airport and have been told Hangar's about $300 a month and if I respond within the first 5 days with a definite plan of action to get a plane, I can possibly get 90 days to get a plane inside the hangar. The costs I get, the idea behind getting a Decathlon is to go travel for a few days every so often and have fun doing it, so ownership (even if it comes at a slight premium) is fascinating. In my brief flying days, I have not enjoyed flying anything more than a SuperDec and fantasize being able to learn how to get proficient at it. (I've been flying a few late model nose wheel auto piloted aircraft, but I really "like to fly the airplane" not just travel by air). I guess the thought of hanging by the seat is exciting as well once I learn how to :). I guess I have some time to find the right kite and to figure out some of the other "stuff". Will bug you all with more! Thanks again!
 
Bartman said:
I'm surprised nobody mentioned covers. You can get a complete set of covers that would protect the wings, the fuselage, and tail feathers from moisture and UV. They're something of a pain in the arse to put on and take off but if it's temporary until a hangar is available then they might not be such a bad idea. Also, if you're flying it often, you might be able to avoid corrosion in the fuselage tubes because the airflow during flight will help to dry it out.

Hangars are definitely better but a hard surface tie-down with full covers (or at least a full cabin cover that will protect the wing to fuselage joint from letting water in) might be ok for a year or two.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Bart;

Have you seen those covers used long term and be effective? I'm asking because I've never seen a set in person. I never heard of anyone using them, so I thought it was just an "Alaska" thing for snow and frost and such. I had no idea they protected against UV. What are they made of? Please provide more detail for those of us who have never experienced them. The idea that they might resolve this type of issue is fascinating.
 
Here are some links you can read. The key points are using a fabric that blocks UV radiation (which isn't hard), and more importantly, using one that is breathable so that it doesn't trap moisture under the cover.

https://www.aircraftcovers.com/faqs

https://www.avweb.com/ownership/win...n-kensey-president-of-kennon-aircraft-covers/

I used a cover on a motor glider for several years and I'd been re-considering that approach recently when the hangar prospects started looking grim, with the potential for our incoming aircraft being out in the elements for at least a few months. On my motor glider, I found I needed to replace the original cover after about 5 years of full time use, but it protected the aircraft just fine. My personal experience has the caveat that this was in western South Dakota where humidity was fairly low most of the year.

Before you ask "Who did you buy it from?" I'll add that I purchased Sunbrella awning fabric and sewed it myself at the same time I sewed a camping cover for our pontoon boat. Sunbrella fabric is "water repellent", not "waterproof", because it has to stay breathable (and you may need to refresh the water repellency with some fabric guard 303 every couple years).

Sunbrella not hard to sew on a decent quality conventional sewing machine and for a Deachlon, you're doing straight pieces and seams. However, the pieces are large and the seams are long. As I recall the standard widths for Sunbrella fabric are 46" and 60". The wing cord on a Citabria or Decathlon is 64". You'll also need about 6" each to wrap around the leading and trailing edges, you'll need about 2" inches each for the hem and strap attachment, and 2 more inches for the seam on the wing. Consequently with 82" required, I'd just sew two pieces of 46" width fabric together, fold it over on one end a couple feet, sew it together to form a pocket for the wing tip, and then sew a hem on each side on the entire length and then sew the straps on to secure the cover. I used 2" nylon webbing with microfiber cloth sewn on the wing side and fastex buckles.

Rinse and repeat for the other wing and then I'd connect the two wing pieces in the middle with a canopy cover over the windshield and greenhouse. You can use some large pieces of paper (like the paper movers used to wrap things) to make a pattern. Fastex buckles on short nylon straps will let you connect the canopy cover to the wing covers and adjust the tension. If you sew the hem on the pieces 1" wide you can run 1/8" bungee cord through it to keep the edges snug in between the straps. I'd also line the canopy cover with microfiber or another soft and breathable fabric to protect the plexiglass.

I used the same Capri blue color that I used for our boat's camping cover. For a Decathlon you'd need about 16 yards for the wings and canopy cover. You should be able to get that quantity at about $20 per yard in a 46" width, so about $320 for the fabric.

With slightly more effort you can use about 7" of the extra 10" to sew sleeves for pool noodles about 1/4 of the way back on the wing's chord line to create spoilers over the wing. I used two 4 ft pool noodles per wing on my motor glider, but you could do the whole span if you wanted too. The closed cell foam in the pool noodle won't hold moisture.

The fuselage and tail covers will require a bit more effort as you'll need to work around the flying wires on the horizontal and vertical stabilizers, but you could either use zippers or velcro. You'll want a flap under the zippers to keep them off the fabric, and that requires some slightly higher level sewing skill. A velcro flap is easier, but sewing velcro requires a machine with good thread tension adjustment. I have a Juki that works great with velcro and nylon webbing that is not high end by serious sewing standards, but it still has a comma in the price.

Still, if you have access to a sewing machine you should be able to sew the covers for the whole aircraft for around $500. For another couple hundred you could probably find someone to sew it for you, if you provide the dimensions for the wing covers and paper patterns for the fail surface covers. And of course you can probably also buy covers commercially and the Decathlon is common enough that someone has probably already done the design work.
 
It took me a minute or two to figure this one out...

Awning fabric is no more or less UV resistant than any other fabric. We've all seen folks in the neighborhood with shredded awnings far too often. However, if it's laying on top of another fabric, the upper (outside) fabric is taking all the damage - which of course keeps the fabric underneath from being exposed. So as long as it is accepted as sacrificial - it should actually work. This is the same principle as the Zinc Anodes used on most steel hulled ships. They take all the corrosion so the steel lasts much longer. You do have to change the anodes but they save the steel. I have never seen it on airplanes before, but it does make sense. Of course you have to cover everything that would get exposed, but 500 or a thousand - even every couple years is far less expensive than a hangar. I would still feel better about a hangar, but I can certainly see the logic in the process. My thanks to the list for making me actually use my brain. I do sincerely appreciate it.

That being said, my 2 cents still wants a hangar for a fabric airplane. I am loath to admit on this august list, but I actually owned a Cessna 140 for 18 years just because I couldn't get a hangar. I would have much preferred a nice Champ or Scout or something, but I couldn't bring myself to leave it outside.

Hope your situation works out well!
 
6-700 dollars a month? Compared to what for tie down? $150?

Time to re-do the analysis. $550/month is $6600/year, without checking the caccle lator. Five years outside gives you over $30 grand in the bank - isn't that enough to restore some wood and recover?

Again, my personal Cub was outside from 1966 through 1980, and then again for five years starting in 2003 while I waited for a second hangar. Last cover was 1976. Paint in 1981. Still looks better than most.
 
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