Ride is scheduled

aftCG

aftCG

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Apr 3, 2018
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Tacoma, WA
Well I've finally got a date with a DPE. April 20 which will give me some time to brush up on regs and knowledge that may be dusty. I'm flying a few times per week in my Citabria but the DPE won't do rides in tail draggers. So I've got a C172N booked for that day. Of course since I haven't rented from this FBO in a year or two I'll take my 43rd C172 check out flight on April 5th. I'm planning on having the CFI beat me up on maneuvers so I get my moneys worth.
 
I'd find a DPE who will do it in a taildragger-- that's what I did. Shouldn't be that hard to find-- the first one I called was willing to do it.

I also did an online CFI recurrent program, which was well worth it in terms of both refreshing my knowledge and teaching me about things which have come on the scene since I was last current as a CFI (and really, since I was last teaching, which was many years before that). Things like IACRA, etc. Knowing the current areas of emphasis and the difference between ACS and PTS was important too.

In many ways, the flying was the easiest part of the process. It was the part I was least concerned with. The one maneuver I really struggled with was (and is) 8s on Pylons. The DPE pointed out to me that when I got my commercial and CFI, in the mid-1980s, 8s on Pylons were not a required maneuver. So I had never learned them in the first place. She was nice and didn't make me do one for checking purposes, although she did have me demonstrate one on a non-graded basis.
 
Good luck!

I did mine in my 172 just because it was so easy to “teach” the examiner. Less to mess up when you can start the plane and see what they’re doing. When I’m in the backseat of my citabria there a lot of instruments I can’t see so it would definitely be a little harder to knock it out to the standards.

Also... much easier to “teach” a soft field or short field in a Cessna than a tailwheel.
 
I think, for me, doing it in a 172 would have been more difficult. Two reasons-- 1) I had a level of familiarity and comfort with the airplane which the DPE didn't, which made it harder for her to ask me about things I didn't know, and 2) since I owned the Citabria, I was able to fly it a lot in preparation for the ride-- rather than one or two flights in a 172. I basically took any of my friends with a pilot certificate and put them in the front, and flew around a bunch. A former airline pilot friend of mine was particularly helpful in this regard.

I told the DPE in advance that when I'm in the back seat, I can see EITHER the altimeter or the airspeed, but not both at the same time, so to factor that in. I also got a long retractable pointer on Amazon which is really helpful for instructing in the tandem configuration. With it, I can point at whatever it is that I want the student to do or see on the panel.

Finally, I learned how to adjust the trim (at least somewhat) using my foot, which really helped a great deal. It's not very precise, but way better than nothing.
 
donv said:
I'd find a DPE who will do it in a taildragger-- that's what I did. Shouldn't be that hard to find-- the first one I called was willing to do it.

I also did an online CFI recurrent program, which was well worth it in terms of both refreshing my knowledge and teaching me about things which have come on the scene since I was last current as a CFI (and really, since I was last teaching, which was many years before that). Things like IACRA, etc. Knowing the current areas of emphasis and the difference between ACS and PTS was important too.

In many ways, the flying was the easiest part of the process. It was the part I was least concerned with. The one maneuver I really struggled with was (and is) 8s on Pylons. The DPE pointed out to me that when I got my commercial and CFI, in the mid-1980s, 8s on Pylons were not a required maneuver. So I had never learned them in the first place. She was nice and didn't make me do one for checking purposes, although she did have me demonstrate one on a non-graded basis.
Click to expand...

I've got a hangar neighbor with a Husky who took his reinstatement ride, but he had to fly to eastern Oregon to do it (and be work friends through SWA). Last year about this time we had DPEs vaporize, either through retirement or FAA action. And apparently not all DPEs can do a reinstatement ride.

I feel almost like the 172 is cheating and maybe that's what you refer to. I'm going to take the opportunity and go with it.

I too had been sweating the 8s on pylons but did go out in my Citabria one day and find some lonely trees in a clear cut area and got it out of my system. Also went back and hit chandelles and Lazy 8s until they feel normal.
 
donv said:
I think, for me, doing it in a 172 would have been more difficult. Two reasons-- 1) I had a level of familiarity and comfort with the airplane which the DPE didn't, which made it harder for her to ask me about things I didn't know, and 2) since I owned the Citabria, I was able to fly it a lot in preparation for the ride-- rather than one or two flights in a 172. I basically took any of my friends with a pilot certificate and put them in the front, and flew around a bunch. A former airline pilot friend of mine was particularly helpful in this regard.

I told the DPE in advance that when I'm in the back seat, I can see EITHER the altimeter or the airspeed, but not both at the same time, so to factor that in. I also got a long retractable pointer on Amazon which is really helpful for instructing in the tandem configuration. With it, I can point at whatever it is that I want the student to do or see on the panel.

Finally, I learned how to adjust the trim (at least somewhat) using my foot, which really helped a great deal. It's not very precise, but way better than nothing.
Click to expand...

I think I must have learned the foot trick from you here on this forum. A couple of weeks ago now I met one of my former students who has a Sportsman Amphib, and we did some plane swapping. I would have put him up front except the two strips we were operating from were basically landing gear width and not excessively long. So we agreed he would come to my home airport at a later date, were the runway is 100' wide and 5002' long.
I had him do almost all the flying from the back. When I told him about using his foot for trim he tried it and said it worked very well.
 
So...
Getting back to this. April 20th happened. My oral went well and we went flying. At the last minute the plane was switched to one I last flew about 20 years ago.
I'm looking back and wish I had heeded the advice above (and frankly the voice inside my head a few times) and found a different DPE who would let me use my own plane.
But I figured I have north of 600 hours (conservatively) in 172s of various configurations, much of it from the right seat. It would be like riding a bike. And it is. If you're just flying around A to B you'll appear to be an expert. But throw in the stress of a check ride with a rigid DPE asking you to perform maneuvers you don't practice and a random plane that I have scant recent hours in. Well...
My steep turns were not up to commercial ACS standards, and worse I didn't call it out and "teach it". He might have let that slide and call it nerves.

He asked for slow flight which went well enough, and then a power off stall. I recovered at the first burble. Pro tip: Live and die by the ACS. He asked me for a private pilot stall. A commercial applicant should recognize a stall and react. A private pilot candidate is expected to call out the first indication (horn, burble, etc) and then stall to break.

Then he told me to do 8's on pylons. It was quite windy and the only place I could spot on short notice was a checkerboard of clear cuts and called them out. It was very tight and sporty for the maneuver but I rocked it pretty well.

He had me head to a field about 25 miles away that is non towered, not busy, and usually a lot windier with more gusts than "home". I was just there 2 hours before writing this landing on the grass bay (sshhh, it's a secret) and it was 10G19 wandering between right down the middle to 45 degrees. Variable at 4 back home.

Soft and short went okay, or so I thought. In the debrief he nailed meet for not straddling the center line. I have never given two s***s about the centerline. As a pre solo student my instructor tried to cure me by taking me to a 12' wide runway. No problem. Main gear on the pavement, no wandering. Why are we here? Back home, 20' left (but grease the landing with no side load)

I have a 100' wide runway. If the entire 5002' length belongs to me then why doesn't the 100' width?

In the BT-13 and T-6 I intentionally take the runway centerline off to one side (usually left) because the view over the nose is blind as soon as you flare, and you're still doing 80. It's kind of nice to have a white stripe going my direction.

That's my whiny excuse, and I'm sticking to it.

Still, we haven't died and he hasn't seemed overly perturbed about anything. He didn't like my responses about 40 degrees of flaps (that specific FBO is like many and tell you never to use 40) or about slips with flaps.

Back towards home. He told me I should ask for a short approach and warned me that I would have an engine problem in the pattern. It happened abeam the numbers. I did what I was taught as a private pilot. I headed for the numbers. I made no attempt to fix the plane. Why would I with a runway right there? Hand the keys in and say "quit on me. Might want to look at that".
Wrong answer, and I'm sure where I hung myself. He expected me to make the full flow (and checklist), followed by an emergency landing.

Had my engine "failed" on the 45 or anywhere prior I would have done the flow. It was 100% my fault.

In debrief I was confused why he had me request a short approach. Another Pro Tip: The C172 glides WAY better than a Citabria. I could have been slow to react, run the full flow, checklist, a 360 for spacing and still made a regular pattern with the engine at idle.

Busted. Fair and square.

Coming up next: the comeback
 
Brings back memories from my checkride! It’s a long day with so much going through your mind. I’ve definitely noticed on checkrides that there’s your way and then the way you have to do it to pass (their way).

Just a few things... centerlines are there for a reason, you are not in full control of the airplane if you can’t keep it on the centerline. If you have other reasons like sidestepping slightly then that’s fine, but you’re not in a t-6 and should have that nosewheel dead centered on that line. If the wind pushes you to the side wouldn’t that mean you’re falling behind the airplane?

Short approach was probably just so that you had no one in front of you so you could focus on the power off 180. Some people dump flaps and turn. A reason I teach to try for a restart is the simple issue of at least looking down and seeing “oops I pulled the mixture instead of the carb heat” and simply pushing it back in and still continuing your landing, but with a running engine. But when you land off field and look down, you will be mad at yourself forever! But I agree... no more than a few seconds in the cockpit and at 1000 feet definitely no checklist.

Just a side note coming from the ops guy... centerlines are pretty much the heart of where signs, lights, and hold bars are placed. Teaching a private pilot that centerlines don’t matter will hurt them when they have to break that habit when they’ll be knocking down signs when they are with the airlines. I was always taught, “if you’re not there, GET THERE!”

Hopefully you’ll knock it out in a quick second flight!
 
Bummer! I'm hoping to hear about the retest...

I agree with the above about centerlines. It helps that I spent many a year flying with people who would always nag me about it ("pretty nice landing, except why is the centerline over there?"), and now I nag myself... so centerlines are easy for me.

I spent a LOT of time practicing power-off 180s. I knew going in that was a hot button for the DPE-- in fact, I think she even told me to practice that when I scheduled the ride.

I'm now working on my CFII-- have to get past the written first, though.
 
aftCG said:
So...
Getting back to this. April 20th happened. My oral went well and we went flying. At the last minute the plane was switched to one I last flew about 20 years ago.
I'm looking back and wish I had heeded the advice above (and frankly the voice inside my head a few times) and found a different DPE who would let me use my own plane.
But I figured I have north of 600 hours (conservatively) in 172s of various configurations, much of it from the right seat. It would be like riding a bike. And it is. If you're just flying around A to B you'll appear to be an expert. But throw in the stress of a check ride with a rigid DPE asking you to perform maneuvers you don't practice and a random plane that I have scant recent hours in. Well...
My steep turns were not up to commercial ACS standards, and worse I didn't call it out and "teach it". He might have let that slide and call it nerves.

He asked for slow flight which went well enough, and then a power off stall. I recovered at the first burble. Pro tip: Live and die by the ACS. He asked me for a private pilot stall. A commercial applicant should recognize a stall and react. A private pilot candidate is expected to call out the first indication (horn, burble, etc) and then stall to break.

Then he told me to do 8's on pylons. It was quite windy and the only place I could spot on short notice was a checkerboard of clear cuts and called them out. It was very tight and sporty for the maneuver but I rocked it pretty well.

He had me head to a field about 25 miles away that is non towered, not busy, and usually a lot windier with more gusts than "home". I was just there 2 hours before writing this landing on the grass bay (sshhh, it's a secret) and it was 10G19 wandering between right down the middle to 45 degrees. Variable at 4 back home.

Soft and short went okay, or so I thought. In the debrief he nailed meet for not straddling the center line. I have never given two s***s about the centerline. As a pre solo student my instructor tried to cure me by taking me to a 12' wide runway. No problem. Main gear on the pavement, no wandering. Why are we here? Back home, 20' left (but grease the landing with no side load)

I have a 100' wide runway. If the entire 5002' length belongs to me then why doesn't the 100' width?

In the BT-13 and T-6 I intentionally take the runway centerline off to one side (usually left) because the view over the nose is blind as soon as you flare, and you're still doing 80. It's kind of nice to have a white stripe going my direction.

That's my whiny excuse, and I'm sticking to it.

Still, we haven't died and he hasn't seemed overly perturbed about anything. He didn't like my responses about 40 degrees of flaps (that specific FBO is like many and tell you never to use 40) or about slips with flaps.

Back towards home. He told me I should ask for a short approach and warned me that I would have an engine problem in the pattern. It happened abeam the numbers. I did what I was taught as a private pilot. I headed for the numbers. I made no attempt to fix the plane. Why would I with a runway right there? Hand the keys in and say "quit on me. Might want to look at that".
Wrong answer, and I'm sure where I hung myself. He expected me to make the full flow (and checklist), followed by an emergency landing.

Had my engine "failed" on the 45 or anywhere prior I would have done the flow. It was 100% my fault.

In debrief I was confused why he had me request a short approach. Another Pro Tip: The C172 glides WAY better than a Citabria. I could have been slow to react, run the full flow, checklist, a 360 for spacing and still made a regular pattern with the engine at idle.

Busted. Fair and square.

Coming up next: the comeback
Click to expand...

Well, first of all, kudos to you for owning up and sharing with us the story of how it all went down. With that behind you I'm sure the plan you're working on is going to get it done the next time around and you'll be a better CFI for it and will make better students/pilots as a result. I failed my EMB-210 type ride the first time because I was a cocky 27 yr old. What was I thinking trying to sip coffee non-chalantly while being vectored for an ILS at 2 in the morning?

One of my favorite youtube references of all time, courtesy of Meet The Robinsons
 
The checklist:

I am a great believer in checklists. Short ones that are usable.

Sure, if you actually lose an engine in the pattern, land. Pay attention to getting the nose down and touching down on something safe.

But prep for a checkride? No matter what, have a simple flow, do it out loud, then grab the checklist, point to the red letters, and say "engine failure checklist complete."

My flow? Mixture, Carb Heat, fuel selector, mags, attempt re-start. Touch each control. Touch the checklist. Land.
You are now supposed to go through "IMSAFE" and "PAVE" prior to doing all that. At this point I would skip that and go right to the flow. Don't mumble about "pitch to glide" or any of that - but mention your planned touchdown point.

Opinion.

The J4 has two black knobs next to each other - carb heat and mixture. Saturday, rolling out of a 360 on downwind, I pulled the wrong knob. She started to quit. The flow worked; I did not have to demonstrate my skill at engine out landing.
 
When I sat down a few nights ago to write about my failed ride in April I had already had my re-test. Here is how all that went...

The CFI reinstatement ride is one of the only check rides for which you don't require an endorsement from a CFI. But when you blow a ride, you need to get training and be able to show it. The DPE I had used suggested I work with the chief instructor from the FBO, and scheduled my do-over for May 30th.
The chief instructor is gruff, and as cuddly as broken glass. He's also quite busy. Being as he's slammed with a 141 school he didn't really have time to squeeze me in, but for some reason he took a liking to me. He scheduled me for two nearly back to back flights, and then two more pairs of flights with the last one just two days before my scheduled ride. He also made a point of scheduling me in the same plane I had just been using.

The paired lessons were mostly to cover for weather, and I'm glad for that because one of each was cancelled for weather and the other was fine. He was demanding and used his military background to make me feel 1/4" tall and then bring me back up. Some people would not appreciate his method but I grew up as an army brat, so I knew the drill. I appreciated the pressure because the ride brings pressure and I wanted to be able to perform well.

He hammered me through ground reference maneuvers from rectangle courses to 8's on pylons. Steep turns, slow flight, stalls of all types including accelerated and cross controlled. I was hung up on steep spirals because for my commercial test we did "emergency descents" with full flaps and top of the white arc. Once again, ACS is your friend. The steep spiral is flown at a "specified speed" (I used 65 knots as clean best glide speed for the C172. There might be a steep(ish) bank involved but it is hardly what one would choose if you suddenly felt compelled to be done flying NOW.

Before I continue I'll address the centerline issue. Not caring about the centerline is my own hang up and I probably made myself sound sloppier than I am. I've never taught that it wasn't important. I do carry a bit of "primacy" with me from my private pilot training though. A perfect landing is a bit of herding cats. You've got the stabilized approach cat, the point of touchdown cat, the touch down quality cat, the runway alignment cat and the runway centerline cat (both offspring of crosswind cat). First and foremost is landing on the exact spot where I intend to. As taught to me, more than any other skill, the ability to land where you want to is the one thing that can keep you from dying in an off airport emergency. "First third of the runway" are not words I utter - ever. Every landing is a spot landing contest - period. And that I do teach.

Stabilized approach cat is redundant, because without it any good landing you make will be mostly luck and statistics. With a tail dragger the next most import cats are runway alignment and crosswind cat. And call it a right brain sense of pride but seriously greasing a landing - you know the kind where there is no chirp there's just a hiss as the tires spin up - demonstrates skill and feel of the aircraft more than flopping on the runway at 1 ft/sec with the nose pinned to the white line.

Like I said, it's my hang up and I've spent the last month not wavering from the line. Damn cats anyway.

Back to the maneuvers, there are some that just leave me clammy. Like WTF happened to the Lazy 8? Am I the only person who sees the Lazy 8 in the "approved aerobatic maneuvers" section of the POH and wonder why it's there? Thirty degrees of bank? What kind of watered down crap is that? Cross your reference line and roll just a little bit and then pitch about twice that much and just hold it there until you cross the mid point. Lazy, see? In my Citabria I do them with a maximum bank over 60 and less than 90 degrees. Going across the top I'm near stall speed and also near zero G (so the wing isn't holding the plane up anyway). Absolutely no need to visualize a 45 and 135 point because if you fly it right there is no action to perform. It is a graceful, artistic maneuver and quite fun, possibly even justified to include in the aerobatic section of the POH

Flight at minimum controllable speed. As a private pilot candidate 22 years ago my 21 year old punk a** instructor insisted I fly circles with the horn blaring at an AoA where it would absolutely quit flying if I increased load factor or reduced power at all. Apparently that would get me jailed now for scaring my student. Flying around at "first indication from the stall horn +5 knots" is just flying around with your nose in the air. The only thing it teaches is how to follow instructions.

Enough of that. Back to the ride.
May 30th it was foggy all morning. The DPE called me at 6:30am and asked me to move it to the next afternoon. For most of the month the weather has been fog/low clouds in the morning and it burns off in the afternoon. The flight school was amenable and moved me (and the plane) to the afternoon of the 31st.

I got there an hour early to find "my" C172 down for maintenance, and in its place was one I had never flown before. Oh well. Got the paperwork out of the way and went flying. My steep turns were excellent, my slow flight a yawn, my power off stall good enough (he commented on my set up in the debrief but my recovery was good). I called out my mistakes as they happened and taught the maneuvers.

He asked me to do 8s on pylons (again). I mentioned that I did them before and was happy with the way I flew them, but on that occasion I just flew them and didn't talk much. This time I was a bit askew because I couldn't find a suitable spot to set up for it. The DPE suggested an area and I used it but really the only thing good about it was that it offered a lot of room to land if the engine quit. Regardless he was happy after not even one complete lap and we went to the same gusty/windy non-towered airport we used last time for short and soft.

That went well enough and I was actually starting to loosen up and fly okay. Back to the home airport where I knew I was going to have my engine out emergency. No surprises, I ran the flow for engine out, mentioned that if I were higher I would pull the checklist and use it but at under 1000' with the runway in range I was going to change to the emergency landing flow/list. I touched down right on the 1000' marks I had called out from the 180 degree point. I think I only had in 10 degrees of flaps when I touched down.

That's it. I'm a CFII again.

Looking back, flying my own plane during the month was of almost no benefit. I guess I did go out a couple of times and talked to my empty back seat while I flew manuevers. I beat myself up about keeping altitude within 20' and of course those darn runway center lines. But I can execute steep turns and lazy 8s in my Citabria without even glancing at the panel and it has no bearing on doing them in the C172 to ACS standards. I came to the conclusion that to fly steep turns to ACS standards is mostly a head down maneuver. If I fly "eyes out" then I can keep my bank angle and altitude cats in check but then airspeed runs off. Getting that back with just a glance down will require more practice on my part.

I could have thrown in the towel on the DPE, who is known to be difficult to please. Instead I accepted it as a challenge, and an opportunity to step up my game. I feel like I earned the temporary he handed me friday afternoon.
 
Yeah, congratulations. It is a lot more difficult these days with every other checkride a flunk. Back in the olden days it was a lot easier and cheaper.
 
FIrst of all, great job, and a great attitude to go with it. You sound like the kind of CFI I would love to fly with.

Second, thanks for renewing your CFI. These days, with so many kids "playing" at being a CFI while they obtain enough hours to run to the airlines, it's hard to find anyone with enough experience to actually TEACH anything. I watch the young CFIs from the nearby ATP factory teaching the next generation of CFIs... The traffic patterns just get bigger and bigger, as each new CFI moves out just a little more to allow them to "stabilize" the final approach...

The other day, there was a Cirrus in the pattern and he was routinely turning base over a road intersection that is literally SIX NAUTICAL MILES from the airport – a full mile outside the Class D airspace for our airport. When I was in the pattern with this guy, and Tower cleared me to land #2 behind the Cirrus turning base, I asked "Tower, do you mean the Cirrus a mile outside your airspace?" The reply was "Yes, that's your traffic." To which I said "Tower, can I get right traffic next time, so I don't have to spend a half-hour on final?" The tower guy laughed and said, "I'lll get 'em to tighten it up a bit..." Sure enough, the next pattern, he told the Cirrus "I'll call your base turn." And when he did (about two miles from the end of the runway, by the way – plenty of room for a stabilized normal approach), the Cirrus turned base, then final, and IMMEDIATELY announced he was going around, that they were too close. With five other airplanes in the pattern, all of them being inconvenienced by this guy, Tower then told them the pattern was too busy to accommodate them, and asked their intentions. The Cirrus guy said "Well, I guess we'll just go back to XXX, then." At which point someone (not me, I swear!) said – on the radio – "Good!" I've seriously thought about calling up their chief pilot and asking what the heck they are teaching their CFIs to make them so scared of a normal pattern!
 
@JimParker256 im sorry but I have to defend us “kids”. I’ve gotten better knowledge from the younger cfi’s than the old ones that don’t know specifics. Experience helps you to more quickly problem solve a situation, getting that experience comes with time(in an airplane, not years). A 60 year old cfi can in no way compare themselves to a 23 year old cfi. A 60 year old cfi that only flew a 172 is much different than a 23 year old cfi that has flown 1000 hours teaching in 20 types of aircraft. Can’t compare!

Down talking the next generation is only going to kill aviation. I always tell the old guys against kids to keep their planes well kept, because we’ll be owning them one day 😉
 
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