Spin training

Bob Turner

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We just had a fatal accident in a spin trainer scenario - not sure, but I think it was a 7KCAB.

No idea what happened. Not even sure they were spinning, but the aircraft was dedicated to the required spin stuff for the CFI rating. And I am way far from being an expert, although I teach spin entries and recoveries. I think the most I have ever done is three turns - once - in my J-3. And never more than 3/4 turn in a Citabria or Decathlon.

So do these things tighten up if one decides to go for a ten turn spin? Is there any possibility of flattening out if the guy in back is heavy? Folks come by my hangar for comment, and I have none, save that I think more than one turn is too much for most of us.

And I do eight slow rolls a week, so unusual flight is not something I totally avoid.
 

aftCG

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Curious about this myself. I've done some spin entire with my plane but never wound it up
 

Bob Turner

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Spins typically do not tighten up in one or two turns. I see no need to teach fully established multiple turn spins. Just get in, let the student see the rotation with the aircraft more or less vertical, then get out. Most inadvertent stall-spin situations would be handled that way - hauling back on the stick for a couple turns while you wonder what to do would surely be fatal.

I do not know if the Citabria goes flat after a bunch of turns if aft loaded. I do know a Cub will do that.
 

Bob Turner

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So I have not stopped looking at this. Currently reading Rich Stovall's book, which, while authoritative, is full of semi- useful data, and not very helpful if one is thinking Champ/Decathlon.

One thing he does stress is a standard way out - power, ailerons, rudder, and only then elevator. My one turn spins do not generally require such rigor. But his point is well taken.

One quoted test pilot stated that any airplane can get into an unrecoverable spin.

Anybody got a more easily read reference that discusses ACA airplanes?
 

jstro

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I'm no GK, but after about 3-4 turns in a 8KCAB the spin is fully developed and stable. I think I've done up to about 6 turns, and experienced nothing unusual. I didn't have anyone in the back seat.
 

Bob Turner

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My buddies at Supercub dot org have given me insight. One report of a Decathlon not recovering in an airshow setting is illuminating.

I had a good friend who was a superb pilot spin a J-3 into the ground. He said it became very difficult to recover, but he regained some control just before impact, and walked away. Took 3 years to fix the airplane.

I think I have a better feel for the scenario than I did when I first posted this thread. Thanks.
 

Bob Turner

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Thanks. You are correct; your Kindle price is quite reasonable. Going to Texas; review when I get back.
 

donv

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I would think spinning the airplane outside of the aerobatic CG range would not be a good idea. I know simple one-turn spins can be done with the CG in that range, but I'd be nervous about doing anything more than that.
 

SpinDoctor

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I have run into several CFI applicants over correcting and snapping the stick forward so far that they induce negative G on the wing. I think this stems from reading too many spin correction techniques for other aircraft, the 172 and Stearman do call for a snap forward on the elevator to recover. It is a difficult situation to react to as an instructor. I usually allow the maneuver to proceed into an inverted spin to unload the wing (I still have wood spars) and then recover. I can see how this could lead to an unexpected negative load on the wing and subsequent over speed in the dive to recover and losing a wing. We are not required to wear parachutes for spin training when its in pursuit of a CFI certificate but I always feel better wearing mine ;)
 

Bob Turner

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The contest spin for Sportsman had a vertical line at recovery. It seemed pretty easy to do, without any excessive elevator input.

We had a guy at a CFI meeting last night advocating for eliminating the CFI spin requirement. Not sure I agree with that.
 

Ron86654

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I also teach spins. My clients are split about 50/50 between folks working on CFI and those who want to experience an intentional spin before possibly experiencing one inadvertently.
The most turns I have done were 9 with 2 aboard.
The first full turn is still incipient and the spin tightens up and the nose down attitude increases for the second turn which is fully developed. After that there is little, if any, change. This is with my 7ECA, other aircraft may act differently.
I start out the training with normal stalls, then cross controlled stalls. Next is a spin entry with immediate recovery, then 1/2 turn with recovery. Then comes 1 full turn with recovery. All the above are done with the client counting the turns by 1/2 turns, i.e. 1/2, 1, 1 1/2, 2. I finish the training with a 2 turn spin with recovery.
By working into the spin a step at a time and counting the turns out loud the client learns to be aware of what is going on around him, both inside and outside the airplane.
Learning to recover from a spin is only a small part of the value of spin training. I think the most valuable lesson for the client is experiencing flight outside their comfort zone. Learning that the "startle reflex" can be subdued to the point of actually thinking through it.
 

Bartman

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Went for a flight with a CFI in my plane to learn spins a few weeks ago. Finally got out this morning to do a few by myself. Did three or four insipient spin recoveries and then three or four spins up to one full spin. My stomach felt fine and I was tempted to do more but I had planned three and so headed home.

When I got back my stomach was fine but my head started a slow burn that went on all day and even now I still have a headache. I took two naps today! Is there a remedy for post-flight to get things settled down? What's the cadence for practice flights to get my body used to this? Every other day? Every day? Once a week?

It was my first solo "acro" flight so I'm happy to have it behind me but in looking forward to more of it I'd like to get my body to settle down if possible. Any info/guidance would be appreciated.

Thanks
 

Bob Turner

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Wear a mask? Three entries/recoveries should not make your head hurt. I do eight slow rolls, and after six my stomach says "go home" - so the last two are aimed at home plate. One minute of straight & level and I am back to normal.

But yeah, you can build up tolerance to high G forces if you work at it - a lot! Just do one at a time; half-turn.
 

Bartman

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There's still a little bit of a headache today but I'm going to try to get out and do it again tomorrow morning. That'll give me a couple of days to recover before my next trip.

I'm wondering though if maybe an Advil or something is ok if my head is spinning again when I'm done. Maybe a decongestant before bed tonight?
 

aftCG

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There's still a little bit of a headache today but I'm going to try to get out and do it again tomorrow morning. That'll give me a couple of days to recover before my next trip.

I'm wondering though if maybe an Advil or something is ok if my head is spinning again when I'm done. Maybe a decongestant before bed tonight?
It could be from the rapid and significant change in altitude, so generally inner ear and sinus. Not that I'm a doctor, nor have I played one on tv
 

Bartman

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went out this morning, two entry recoveries and two spins (and recoveries, duh). i think what got my head spinning, for lack of a better word, last time was me being so paranoid about traffic/area awareness I was moving my head around way too much and I did it to myself. I caught myself doing the same thing this morning and feeling the effects so I slowed things down, tried to be more efficient with how much I was moving my head around, and came out of it all feeling fine. the plan is to get back out there this evening to do a few more and try to keep slowly improving my tolerance and my ability to maintain situational awareness as I'm maneuvering the plane. it's fun, can easily see how it's addictive, and I think I'm ready to start thinking about what's next.