Wheel Landings - 7ECA

R

RogerG

Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2020
Messages
5
Location
TA67
I’m a new owner of a 1980 7ECA, and low time TW. I would like to hear what other 7ECA pilots use for approach speed, and throttle management when planning for Wheel landings. I’m sure there are many different ideas, but I welcome comment. I’m here to learn from others.

My 3 points are pretty consistent, I typically use 70 mph final approach, and close throttle at the approach end of the runway. In the flair I look to far end of the runway, then manage the flair. With Wheel landings I try to use same approach, then fly level 2-3 ft over the runway with 1200-1500 RPM which I slowly reduce until touch down, then apply forward stick as soon as I feel the runway. Sometimes I get a small bounce, and sometimes I end up flaring after a small bounce and do a 3 pt. If the bounce is large enough I apply power and recover or do a go around. Sometimes everything works perfect. Consistency is what I’m after.
 
How much forward stick? Try just a hint of forward pressure at touchdown.

Leave the power alone, at first. Then try with reduced power. You will be able to do it at idle after some practice.
 
Bob Turner said:
How much forward stick? Try just a hint of forward pressure at touchdown.

Leave the power alone, at first. Then try with reduced power. You will be able to do it at idle after some practice.
Click to expand...
Trying to go about a fist forward. I think part of my problem is the fact I trained in a PA-11 with bush wheels, and I’m still trying find the runway in the Citabria. This is getting better every flight.
 
Some planes are easier than others. I don't know why. I found Champs and Citabria's a challenge. In my current Super D, it's almost effortless. Perhaps the extra weight on the nose stops the tail from dropping when the wheels touch.

For technique, I carry 5 mph extra on approach and keep a touch of power, but not much. Instead of rounding out a few feet high, I fly it right down onto the runway and then look to the far end. I don't float along very far that way, so don't have to do much feeling. I use "enough" stick forward, but not exaggerated. Fist forward sounds about right.
 
For wheel landings I trim the nose down so I have to use some back pressure on the stick. Then on touchdown I just relax the back pressure.
 
I fly mainly off 3000’ grass, but I often land on paved also. Seems to not make any difference to me as long as direction is controlled. The Citabria seems to play out pretty quickly with no power, add a little power then I have little more time to get level and wheels closer to the runway. Once I get consistent on wheelies then I will add in crosswind which we have pretty often.
 
RogerG said:
I fly mainly off 3000’ grass, but I often land on paved also. Seems to not make any difference to me as long as direction is controlled. The Citabria seems to play out pretty quickly with no power, add a little power then I have little more time to get level and wheels closer to the runway. Once I get consistent on wheelies then I will add in crosswind which we have pretty often.
Click to expand...

Crosswind is the main reason to do wheel landings on pavement. The theory goes that wheel landings have two advantages. First, you can maintain visibility of the centerline, which allows you to more accurately detect drift. Second, the extra speed gives you more rudder authority.

OTOH, my old aircraft partner learned on a Champ in 1946, had about 30K tailwheel hours, and was an FAA DPE for retraining pilots after ground loops for several decades. He felt that the more crosswind there was, the sooner you need the tailwheel on the ground. He advised 3 pointers always, and felt wheel landings were mostly for showing off your stick and rudder skills.

Personally I always land 3 point, but practice wheel landings in case I ever feel the need to paste the upwind wheel on the pavement in a really cranking crosswind.

Unfortunately I rarely get the opportunity to fly onto grass. Turf gets pretty soggy in Florida, so it's not as common as in other areas of the country. Do most folks wheel land on turf?
 
Last edited:
I only have 6K tailwheel hours, but I sort of agree with your buddy.
But I practice in 20 kt direct crosswinds when I can get them, and sometimes I cannot get the wheel on straight without some extra speed. Then you need a touch of brake to get the tail down.
That's in a J3. All the spring steel gear Champs start "skittering" around 12 kts direct.
 
I'm still struggling too - used to flying Pawnees, and those things are so super easy to land whichever way (and seemingly whatever cross wind). I mainly land on pavement - my approach (which I also use in the Pawnees) is a faster final, 80mph, no throttle, and use the momentum to settle down at a higher speed. Works great in the Pawnees! But in my 7ECA, I struggle with passengers / luggage. I suspect I'm not landing fast enough, i.e. touching down too much nose high. With just me in the plane, the stick forward works, but not with weight in the back, so I'm getting bounces.
 
Wheel landings are definitely harder in my Super D with someone in the back seat. Not surprising. More weight in the back moves the CG further behind the mains, which increases the tendency of the tail to drop when the mains make contact. Tail drops, AoA increases, lift increases, aircraft bounces. I just did some practice wheel landings today with a +200 lb passenger and full tanks. Definitely had to react faster to wheel contact with forward stick to avoid bounce.
 
I devote the occasional flight to practicing wheel landings, and I'll usually make a 2 hour affair with around a dozen landings at 3 or 4 different fields with a mix of pavement grass and crosswind landings. The goal here is consistency and making sure I have full control of the aircraft and nail each landing, despite the differing conditions.

My take on it is that the spring steel gear Citabria is a bit harder to wheel land than a Super Cub or Super Cruiser. If you have any excess descent rate at all it'll want to bounce. Similarly, on an uneven grass strip, a small bump at the wrong time is much more likely to launch you back into the air.

It's easier to wheel land one if you keep your speed up a bit (around 80 mph over the fence) for three reasons.
- It lets you settle toward the runway with a bit more control;
- gives you a lot more time as the aircraft bleeds off the excess energy; and
- you usually contact the runway with the tail a bit higher, making it a bit easier to "stick" the aircraft on the runway.

One of the things that can help speed the learning curve is to fly a low pass down the runway at about 80 mph with some power and try to keep it 6" off the runway. If you touch, it's all good as you just bounce or recover back to 6" or so, and it lets you develop the visuals needed to get there in the flare and then fly it down that last 6".

Also, once you can do that consistently, just pull some power off and fly it on.

It's also very useful to do a similar low pass, but using rudder and aileron to touch one wheel on the runway, while tracking straight down the runway. It's easier on grass than on pavement but you can do it on both and no cross wind is required. Once you can do it both left and right, you can do it with one wheel then the other. The next step is to touch one wheel and then hold it there during a wheel landing, keeping it up until you are ready to bring it, and the tail down. That ability to put yourself 6" over the runway, touch down on one wheel and stick it in a wheel landing will make touching the upwind wheel down in a cross wind wheel landing easy.

Eventually you'll want to do wheel landings from 65 mph over the fence. It works the same way, you just have a lot less time to fly it on the runway, the tail will be lower and the stick movement is a bit different - it's more releasing back pressure at contact, than it is adding forward stick.
 
Note: All of the following numbers are my airplane, a no-flaps Citabria. Not a Scout or Decathlon, or even GCBC. YMMV.

65 is plenty for a wheel landing. I've not only had to go through this mental exercise to improve (I won't say "perfect" or next time out I'll eat a taxi way light) my own wheel landings, but as a CFI I have to walk others through the mandatory requirement of demonstrating both 3 point and wheel landings.
Myself, I go out a few times per week and some days I will make 6 or 7 laps of the pattern doing only wheel landing touch and goes (tail never touches). That to me is the pinnacle of concentration in this aircraft because you can't take your eye off the runway for even a split second to set trim, carb heat etc.
My approach to wheel landings borrows a bit from good soft field technique, where we carry a bit of power. Mostly I'm just keeping some air blowing over the tail for increased elevator authority. The low approach practice BB57 discusses above is key to how I teach this. Sure, it's easier if you come smoking down final at 80mph and I'll let a student do that once but you're really just flying the airplane to the surface. If it helps make it click for you, then okay.
At a more reasonable speed of 70 I have them leave 1100rpm on the tach and direct them to make a low approach at 1" above the surface. That is usually interpreted as 2' which will result in an ugly bounce, and here's why:
Even at 2' ground effect is helping to cushion our arrival, but once we get our eyes down the runway and arrest the descent with just slight back pressure the speed starts bleeding off rapidly and there goes our ground effect cushion. Done from 1" or even 6" it will result in a mostly decent wheel landing.
Done from any higher though the airplane either quits flying and bounces abruptly, or the pilot is forced to keep pulling back to arrest the drop which will result in a 3 point landing - or worse a nose high 2 point drop which results in one of those ugly pitch up things where you're now a few feet in the air with no airspeed.

The window of opportunity for a nice wheel landing is narrow because of the speed bleeding off. It's much longer at 80 which is why so many gravitate (no pun intended) towards that. It's less (but usable) at 70, good enough at 65 and almost non existent at 60 but should be what we work our way towards if we really want to be good at it.

As my students learn wheel landings I'm coaching from the back to make the approach at 70, with 1100 rpms (the airplane cannot continue to fly with that amount of power even in ground effect). They'll hear me saying "keep it coming down, keep it coming down" so they don't start flaring at 2'. Then they get an "now, eyes down the runway - arrest the descent". That's all you're using back pressure for. Our eyes are extremely well calibrated to see the most minute descent rate if we focus at the far end of the runway. Crappy landings at this point are because they are looking at the runway in front of the plane or their eyes are just glazing over and they're feeling for the ground.

Once the descent is arrested you should be 6" or (hopefully) less from the surface and you must release that back pressure before the speed bleeds off, which is a couple of seconds at 70. Release it gently and even the 6" will be an acceptable arrival, but with practice at getting lower the tires don't even chirp. Once the tires touch I have them gently reduce power and work that tail to the ground under control. High fives are now justified but saved for when we're clear of the runway for reasons you all understand.

The biggest "technique" I have to redirect people from is the "stick the landing with a forward jab" that tells me they read that chapter from Stick and Rudder. They tend to apply that when any tire contacts the surface no matter how abruptly as if it can save the day. All it does is result in a heinous bounce, and often a couple of them as they stay with that idea.

And yes I realize that one pilot's forward jab is another pilot's easing of the back pressure and it is based on pitch trim. I'm having them trim for the 70mph approach hands off. The descent rate can be arrested temporarily with back pressure or permanently with application of thrust. Once that is understood you can then move on to the tail low wheel landing without even having a CFI on board.
 
I use a combination. I don't instruct regularly in Champs, but for the Cubs and Stearman I start out fast, with power, and progress to power off, minimum speed wheel landings. Seems to make the transition go quicker. Brand new students get the power on wheel landing first, then progress to full stall/3 point.
 
Bob Turner said:
I use a combination. I don't instruct regularly in Champs, but for the Cubs and Stearman I start out fast, with power, and progress to power off, minimum speed wheel landings. Seems to make the transition go quicker. Brand new students get the power on wheel landing first, then progress to full stall/3 point.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I start with three point and find I could teach a chimp to do them.
Edit: It goes like this. Final approach using pitch and power just like any nose dragger. I tell them to leave the power at 8-900 rpm (it's part of the trick) and get down 1' off the ground. As they get down low I tell them "do NOT let this airplane land", which is of course impossible. They'll grease the three point every time, stick full back. Next ones are power off but I still chant "do NOT let this airplane land"
 
Last edited:
I no longer do primary, but found the initial touchdown (in a Cub) to be a confidence builder. Our techniques sound quite similar. My mantra is "don't let it touch" - same idea. Cannot do that in a Decathlon, but then I would never do initial tailwheel in a Dec.

I don't know about "greasing every time." I only did seven landings yesterday, mostly due to an X-C to an uncontrolled field, but I assure you, not all were grease jobs.
 
Thanks for all the tips - I'm heading out trying both the low pass and 70mp approach with 1100 rpm. I do low speed power off wheel landings in the pawnee, but that gear absorbs just about anything, plus it's more of a flying manhole cover with power out (meaning once it's down, it stays down).
 
Well yesterday was really gusty, and with the approach end being just above trees, I kept final speeds up above 80. As such couldn't really try the 70mph approach. With the higher speed there was no reason to keep power in the flare. However, I think I did the trick of arresting sink with just slight back pressure before touchdown, then releasing it. I say "think" because I actually don't quite know - all on pavement, my first 2 landings were bad, lots of bouncing, then the next one was good, and last one super smooth (and also got me stopped relatively quick). It got dark so I called it quits - but I'm not necessarily wiser. It also got me thinking that in strong crosswinds, it will be gusty, and at least in the lighter 7ECA, I feel I need the higher speed on final to penetrate the gusts, otherwise I'm just dropping way to much in gusts.
 
Weight definitely makes a difference. I did a BFR a few months ago in a 7ECA and found it much more challenging to wheel land than my 8KCAB. I think the larger engine and CS prop on the front move the CG closer to the landing gear, resulting is less rotational momentum rearward when the mains touch.

I sometimes transition from 3 point to wheel landing if carrying too much speed when I cross the fence. Rather than glide down the runway while bleeding off airxpeed for a full stall, I will just round out lower, paste the mains on, and step on the brakes.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top