8KCAB While the engine is off ...

Big Ed

N50247 - '79 Super D
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
Messages
1,938
Location
Tampa, FL
Okay, decision is made. Engine comes off this weekend and off to the shop. Best case turnaround is about 3 months.

I would LOVE to do a fuselage restoration while the engine is off. Cut the cover off, media blast the frame, replace the wood and cables, and recover. THAT would be great.

Unfortunately, it's not in the cards. My business is very demanding right now. No way I can get that kind of free time. Plus it is hot as balls in South Florida for the next 6 months. Absolutely miserable to work in the hangar.

So ... what should I absolutely 100% do while the engine is off? Put another way, what would I be an idiot NOT to do?

A few items to start the discussion:

Definitely:
  • Engine shock mounts.
  • Strip, inspect, and repaint engine mount.
  • Replace firewall thru fittings.

Probably:
  • Install engine monitor.
  • Rewire switch panel.
  • Electrical system update.

Maybe:
  • Replace firewall?
  • Floorboards?
  • Control cables?

What else??
 
Disassemble the controls in the fuselage and replace anything that isn't 100% wobble/play free. There are a lot of spots where things pivot on only a bolt and the material the part is made of (no bushings, no bearings) so those parts need to be inspected and replaced from time to time.

While the seats and floorboards are out, maybe pull the boot cowl as well and inspect all wiring, terminal ends, and ground points. Maybe consider tracing dead/abandoned wires and clean them out.

How are the exhaust systems on 180 hp 8KCAB's? Maybe send it out to be inspected for cracks and repairs if necessary?

Clean inverted oil system components really well.

Replace rubber parts in fuel shutoff valve and gascolator, maybe send the electric fuel pump out for overhaul.

Consider replacing control cables if they are all still original.

Remove the springs and check for play in rudder and brake pedals, same story there as other cockpit controls.

Get your induction tubes powder coated, it looks fly.

If you want to go crazy, remove all of the pulleys within reach of the cockpit and clean them before regreasing them. The tool from Aircraft Spruce works pretty well. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/acsregreaser.php?clickkey=3026630
 
I vote for control cables. They rarely receive the attention they deserve and there will never be a better time to think about it.
 
Having just done what you are about to go through.....I'll tell you....prepare yourself...unless your shop physically has all the parts on hand that you will need, I'd be shocked if you have your engine back in 3 months. It took 8 to turn mine around and just got it back flying 3 weeks ago. I also said oh yeah 3 months tops when I started in September. That being said I hope your shop is right and you flying again in 3 months.

The plus side to being down for 8 months in the winter in Chicago....I completed quite a project list on my 8KCAB. Everything firewall forward was either replaced or overhauled. I installed new carbon fiber floors (except baggage floor board-covered that with carbon fiber vinyl to somewhat match), a complete new interior and all trim pieces, disassembled seats- powder coated them and reassembled with new bushings and hardware, smoke system, SL 418 Electrical update, new Mitchell oil temp and pressure gauges, replaced the fuel shutoff valve with the new style current part, and replaced and updated just about anything else that mounts on, goes through, or touched the firewall. Also overhauled the prop and flushed the inverted system. All new oil and fuel hoses, overhauled mags and fuel injection system. Replaced the rudder cables (both had a frayed spot)- was going to replace elevator cables, but that's nearly impossible with the fuselage covered and mine are in great shape, and repainted the wing struts and gear legs. Plus a few other things I'm forgetting. If you send your mount out to be overhauled to AMI (there are pretty much the only ones left, they bought out everyone else), it will cost you about $1700, no matter what they quote you when you send it in. If you can strip and paint it yourself and find a local guy to inspect it you are way better off and prob only looking at a few hundred bucks.

As far as the firewall goes, that can be a rabbit hole....and I'll tell you my story lol. You can order one from Wag Aero, be prepared for it to take 8-12 weeks to be made and its galvanized like the old ones, and also be prepared for it not to fit well and come to you without any holes drilled in it. You can also get a new stainless firewall from ACA for 4 times the price. This is what I did and it was well worth it. It already has all the holes you need punched out and you can get new passthrough covers and grommets with it. In fact I would order it completely made up in the factory and shipped to you with all the new shiny parts attached to it already. Someone on here had an 8KCAB firewall made up they didn't use and was selling it in the last month or two. Had I seen it a few weeks earlier I would of bought it! So if its still available, I would snag that one! The new firewall becomes a rabbit hole when you find out that the gascolator pass through has changed, as well as the starter cable pass through hole when you do SL 418... so I ended up replacing my fuel shutoff valve, gascolator, and associated fuel tubes because I did not want to put a bunch of extra holes in the brand new firewall I just bought. And this way my airplane has current parts that can be easily obtained if need to be fixed or replaced. Oh and did I mention....the new fuel valve requires a new bracket be welded to the frame in place of the old one. Not that big a deal, but you will need a welder who knows what they are doing. We have a great guy up here who did it for me as well as welded in the second seatbelt lug in front for the hooker harnesses. I also got new heat boxes (front and rear) for the firewall as well as new insulation on the inside. In fact I replaced all of the boot cowl insulation while I had it opened up.

The electrical mod is not hard with the plane all opened up, the one thing I will say is that look at your battery tray before hand. If it is the old Bellanca tray still, then you will prob need a new one, unless you are going to patch the hole cut out of it next to your current master solenoid. There isn't enough room on the old tray with the hole to mount both the master and starter solenoids. I also replaced the long thick starter cable that runs from the back, through the firewall and to the starter. This was cleaner and easier than using the existing cable.

The one thing I didn't do, cause I was already maxed out paying for a new engine and all the upgrades and part is install a JPI or EI engine monitor. Don't be me....install one!!!! Thats the one regret I have abut my 8 month project. I was saving it for the future panel redo and upgrade next winter. Would be very helpful right now while I'm breaking in my new engine!

So as far as what to absolutely do?....How much free time do you have? lol. Everything I did took the course of about 3 months really working on it a solid full 3-4 days a week. I did almost all of it myself with the close supervision of my A&P, and it turned out great. Must do's though for sure...spruce up anything you can firewall forward. Especially overhaul or inspect the mount and replace the Lorde mounts. The firewall and everything else it caused me to modify was prob the biggest part of the project believe it or not. That being said, it could be done a lot simpler and faster I'm sure by not messing with the fuel system at all. Take out the crappy old carpet and wood floor boards and go carbon fiber if you have the money. And for gods sake, yes definitely do an engine monitor now!

Oh, and I also have the convenience of being an 18 min flight from the factory. I prob made 15-20 runs up there for parts and to be able to look at how things go together and ask questions.

Hope this helps. I have a ton more pics if you need of anything I've done.

Brian
 

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Not that I'am aware of. I have a 77' so I was just looking for someone to blast inspect and paint the mount. I should've done it myself... I was told by AMI/AWI that is would be about $500 for them to do it. There were no visible cracks or anything wrong with it that we could see, but they insisted on rebuilding the whole thing. After the fact I found of from numerous people that this is a normal occurrence with AWI/AMI. Later on I found a guy who used to work for Wag Aero building and overhauling mounts. I wish I had found mine sooner...
 
Not that I'am aware of. I have a 77' so I was just looking for someone to blast inspect and paint the mount. I should've done it myself... I was told by AMI/AWI that is would be about $500 for them to do it. There were no visible cracks or anything wrong with it that we could see, but they insisted on rebuilding the whole thing. After the fact I found of from numerous people that this is a normal occurrence with AWI/AMI. Later on I found a guy who used to work for Wag Aero building and overhauling mounts. I wish I had found mine sooner...
Same here on the '77, thought I missed an AD as that's usually in play when people send stuff out for an expensive overhaul from a repair station.

feeling relieved. 🥴
 
Having just done what you are about to go through.....I'll tell you....prepare yourself...unless your shop physically has all the parts on hand that you will need, I'd be shocked if you have your engine back in 3 months. It took 8 to turn mine around and just got it back flying 3 weeks ago. I also said oh yeah 3 months tops when I started in September. That being said I hope your shop is right and you flying again in 3 months.

The plus side to being down for 8 months in the winter in Chicago....I completed quite a project list on my 8KCAB. Everything firewall forward was either replaced or overhauled. I installed new carbon fiber floors (except baggage floor board-covered that with carbon fiber vinyl to somewhat match), a complete new interior and all trim pieces, disassembled seats- powder coated them and reassembled with new bushings and hardware, smoke system, SL 418 Electrical update, new Mitchell oil temp and pressure gauges, replaced the fuel shutoff valve with the new style current part, and replaced and updated just about anything else that mounts on, goes through, or touched the firewall. Also overhauled the prop and flushed the inverted system. All new oil and fuel hoses, overhauled mags and fuel injection system. Replaced the rudder cables (both had a frayed spot)- was going to replace elevator cables, but that's nearly impossible with the fuselage covered and mine are in great shape, and repainted the wing struts and gear legs. Plus a few other things I'm forgetting. If you send your mount out to be overhauled to AMI (there are pretty much the only ones left, they bought out everyone else), it will cost you about $1700, no matter what they quote you when you send it in. If you can strip and paint it yourself and find a local guy to inspect it you are way better off and prob only looking at a few hundred bucks.

As far as the firewall goes, that can be a rabbit hole....and I'll tell you my story lol. You can order one from Wag Aero, be prepared for it to take 8-12 weeks to be made and its galvanized like the old ones, and also be prepared for it not to fit well and come to you without any holes drilled in it. You can also get a new stainless firewall from ACA for 4 times the price. This is what I did and it was well worth it. It already has all the holes you need punched out and you can get new passthrough covers and grommets with it. In fact I would order it completely made up in the factory and shipped to you with all the new shiny parts attached to it already. Someone on here had an 8KCAB firewall made up they didn't use and was selling it in the last month or two. Had I seen it a few weeks earlier I would of bought it! So if its still available, I would snag that one! The new firewall becomes a rabbit hole when you find out that the gascolator pass through has changed, as well as the starter cable pass through hole when you do SL 418... so I ended up replacing my fuel shutoff valve, gascolator, and associated fuel tubes because I did not want to put a bunch of extra holes in the brand new firewall I just bought. And this way my airplane has current parts that can be easily obtained if need to be fixed or replaced. Oh and did I mention....the new fuel valve requires a new bracket be welded to the frame in place of the old one. Not that big a deal, but you will need a welder who knows what they are doing. We have a great guy up here who did it for me as well as welded in the second seatbelt lug in front for the hooker harnesses. I also got new heat boxes (front and rear) for the firewall as well as new insulation on the inside. In fact I replaced all of the boot cowl insulation while I had it opened up.

The electrical mod is not hard with the plane all opened up, the one thing I will say is that look at your battery tray before hand. If it is the old Bellanca tray still, then you will prob need a new one, unless you are going to patch the hole cut out of it next to your current master solenoid. There isn't enough room on the old tray with the hole to mount both the master and starter solenoids. I also replaced the long thick starter cable that runs from the back, through the firewall and to the starter. This was cleaner and easier than using the existing cable.

The one thing I didn't do, cause I was already maxed out paying for a new engine and all the upgrades and part is install a JPI or EI engine monitor. Don't be me....install one!!!! Thats the one regret I have abut my 8 month project. I was saving it for the future panel redo and upgrade next winter. Would be very helpful right now while I'm breaking in my new engine!

So as far as what to absolutely do?....How much free time do you have? lol. Everything I did took the course of about 3 months really working on it a solid full 3-4 days a week. I did almost all of it myself with the close supervision of my A&P, and it turned out great. Must do's though for sure...spruce up anything you can firewall forward. Especially overhaul or inspect the mount and replace the Lorde mounts. The firewall and everything else it caused me to modify was prob the biggest part of the project believe it or not. That being said, it could be done a lot simpler and faster I'm sure by not messing with the fuel system at all. Take out the crappy old carpet and wood floor boards and go carbon fiber if you have the money. And for gods sake, yes definitely do an engine monitor now!

Oh, and I also have the convenience of being an 18 min flight from the factory. I prob made 15-20 runs up there for parts and to be able to look at how things go together and ask questions.

Hope this helps. I have a ton more pics if you need of anything I've done.

Brian

Wow, what a ton of great insight! Thanks!

I think based on your experience, I am definitely going to avoid any "good idea" upgrades, with the exception of the engine monitor. I think the benefit of that feature with a new engine is obvious. For sure not going to replace the firewall. I am in full rabbit hole avoidance mode.

This is probably not my forever airplane. If I continue to progress in the IAC, I may probably outgrow it and graduate to a Pitts or monoplane in a year or two. Mainly I am looking at things that would protect my investment in a new engine. Monitor, mounts, etc.

If it were to drag out to 6-8 months, that would not be optimal but would also not be a disaster. If I get to cooler weather in October without an engine, I might take advantage of the situation to cut off the fabric, blast and repaint the frame, and replace the wood and cables.
 
Yeah, I wouldn’t say it’s not recommended cause I’m very happy I did the firewall. But it will defiantly add 40 hrs or so to your project.

Just curious. What was the reason you pulled the engine? Mine ate a piston plug and a half in one cylinder. Then had a bunch of corrosion when we looked deeper. Overhauled in the mid 90’s
 
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Yeah, I wouldn’t say it’s not recommended cause I’m very happy I did the firewall. But it will defiantly add 40 hrs or so to your project.

Just curious. What was the reason you pulled the engine? Mine ate a piston plug and a half in one cylinder. Then had a bunch of corrosion when we looked deeper. Overhauled in the mid 90’s

Making metal.
 
Two different philosophies:
1. Do an oil analysis with diagnosis at every oil change. Worry when results come back.
2. Check the screen. No metal? Keep flying.

I am #2. I have not "lost" an engine due to "making metal" yet. My buddy is #1. His first oil analysis came back -10 SMOH - too much aluminum. Worry. He has a point, of course - catch it early and you maybe save very expensive parts.
 
Lycoming cams are a weak point -but why can't they survive a coating of corrosion? Sure, they can get pitted and wear faster than before, but I reassembled a Continental in the early 1970s with badly pitted cam and lifter bodies, and got another thousand hours out of it. At the time $12 each for new lifters was a bit too steep for me.

I still have the engine stored in serviceable condition - maybe someday I will take a look.

I have heard of Lycomings losing a single cam lobe, but rather suspect that there may have been a metallurgical flaw - one would think that if rust is the culprit, all the lobes would get ground down. Also, you lose even one cam lobe, you will really see a giant decrease in power output.

I am not a Lycoming specialist - I have owned the AEIO for 20 years, but it has been almost bulletproof with fine wires on the lower plugs. I have never been inside, except for the oil sump and shuttle.
 
Many Continentals have the cam under the crank in oil, many Lycomings have the cam above the crank in air when not running.
 
Cam and lifters are a known issue with Lycomings. The cam and lifters are exposed to air inside the crankcase body, and they are not directly lubricated during operation, so the first few rotations rely on residual oil coating from the last flight. After a month of disuse, the oil coating dries off and tiny corrosion pits start to form on the lifter surface. Those gradually erode til they become big pits and start to abrade the cam lobe. The cam is harder than the lifters, so it does ok for a while. Eventually the abrasion breaks through the hardened surface layer of the cam and one of the lobes shears off.

Mine sat for about 5 years. Near guaranteed to make metal after that. Everything I read said I could expect to get about 200 hours. I got 225.
 
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