On vintage planes and the current crop of DPEs

[JackC]

Odd experience recently.

We were going to use a champ to get someone’s CPL ride done, seems easy enough, based on the ACS there is nothing one can not get done in a champ.

Seeing it’s a more or less true to original champ it’s got no attitude indicator, which for a VFR ride is no factor.

Well… not so fast, apparently the current crop of DPEs and ASIs are completely unable to judge bank angle for steep turns off the REAL HORIZON, like ya know the huge line god made between sky and earth! I kid you not

Oddly enough if you step into the time machine with me, this would mean the current testers of pilots would have been completely un able to make pilots from the dawn of aviation up until almost the 1960s, when most common trainers didn’t have artificial horizons.

We probably would have lost WWII for lack of pilots as the stearman didn’t have a AI ether



1920s requirements

1940s requirements

Common primary civilian trainer of the time, J3 cub

Primary military trainer of the time, stearman

I wonder if years from now you won’t be able to take a checkride without a iPad and full ADSB as the testers won’t be able to navigate or avoid traffic without the glowing screens

 

[Bob Turner]

Yeah. We had to temporarily put a horizon in a 7ECA for just that reason.

Go Sport. That checkride can be done in a Cub, and now you can fly almost anything under "Sport."

 

[JackC]

Yeah. We had to temporarily put a horizon in a 7ECA for just that reason.

Go Sport. That checkride can be done in a Cub, and now you can fly almost anything under "Sport."

The applicant is looking to go pro, so CPL was needed.

According to the ACS and FAR there is zero need for an attitude indicator for that ride which makes it even more frustrating.


I even offered training wheels to a few of them, saying they could use a protractor and dry erase marker from my desk to make some lines on the windshield if they couldn’t figure out basic angles.

Is what it is, and these days most of my CFIing is new owner transitions, endorsements and some odd ball stuff, so I MAYBE do 1-2 checkride recommends a year, still shocking and sad for where our beloved industry is heading.

We did have one DPE who was game to do it, but was getting pushback from their FSDO, we just went path of least resistance and used a different plane.

 

[Tangogawd]

The "Old" guys around here will still do checkrides in basic planes for commercials. had one done in my 7GCBC with no AI.... but there are only 2 of them left.

And I never understand when the DPE claims pushback from a FSDO..... it's their rules.

 

[Bob Turner]

I don't do recommendations any more.

I went forty years without a failure, then about 15 years ago I started getting rejections. One was for not being able to demonstrate a stable approach in a J3 - if the examiner had simply asked for a power on 60 mph approach the applicant could easily have done it.

The other reason is ACS. I counted half, then multiplied by 2, and came up with a question and answer every six seconds for six hours.

I hold four degrees, two of them advanced, five type ratings, and am close to the Charles Taylor award. I do not know enough about anything to survive that kind of questioning, let alone aviation. I realize that DPEs probably cheat a bit to hold it within six hours, but still - expounding one's knowledge base over six hours? Even a Ph.D defense is only a third of that. No way will I participate in that sort of torture.

My Airbus oral was 15 minutes - half of that was the fed getting coffee while I sketched the hydraulic control systems in three colors on a scratch pad. Boom. My PP oral was a congrats and a shot of whiskey.

 

[JackC]

The "Old" guys around here will still do checkrides in basic planes for commercials. had one done in my 7GCBC with no AI.... but there are only 2 of them left.

And I never understand when the DPE claims pushback from a FSDO..... it's their rules.

However a FSDO can pull their designation anytime for any reason, or no reason.
Six figure your own sched/your own boss gig poof gone

I don't do recommendations any more.

I went forty years without a failure, then about 15 years ago I started getting rejections. One was for not being able to demonstrate a stable approach in a J3 - if the examiner had simply asked for a power on 60 mph approach the applicant could easily have done it.

The other reason is ACS. I counted half, then multiplied by 2, and came up with a question and answer every six seconds for six hours.

I hold four degrees, two of them advanced, five type ratings, and am close to the Charles Taylor award. I do not know enough about anything to survive that kind of questioning, let alone aviation. I realize that DPEs probably cheat a bit to hold it within six hours, but still - expounding one's knowledge base over six hours? Even a Ph.D defense is only a third of that. No way will I participate in that sort of torture.

My Airbus oral was 15 minutes - half of that was the fed getting coffee while I sketched the hydraulic control systems in three colors on a scratch pad. Boom. My PP oral was a congrats and a shot of whiskey.

I agree

Seems most orals are like 1.5-2hrs, 1.5 flight

The 8hr CFI oral was always laughable right of passage

Real world of you can’t figure out if a guys knows his stuff in a hour or so probably shouldn’t be a Checkairman

 

[Bob Turner]

Our PP orals are in fact six hours long.

When I was working, I could tell how good a First Officer was going to be in about six minutes. The oral should be less than two hours, and maybe the flight could be slightly longer? I can only cover slow flight, stalls, steep turns, and pattern in an hour, but ground ref, cross country, diversion, and emergencies would stretch that out to at least an hour +45.

Opinion.

 

[JackC]

Our PP orals are in fact six hours long.

When I was working, I could tell how good a First Officer was going to be in about six minutes. The oral should be less than two hours, and maybe the flight could be slightly longer? I can only cover slow flight, stalls, steep turns, and pattern in an hour, but ground ref, cross country, diversion, and emergencies would stretch that out to at least an hour +45.

Opinion.

Agree

Heck a 1.5hr oral is only like 1hr when you factor messing with IACRA and its security stuff, checking log books, meet and greet, someone uses the bathroom etc

Yeah 1.5 (.5 admin etc) ground, 1.5 air (factor taxi, ground ref, etc, seems about right

 

[Bob Turner]

ok - agree. See if they care . . .