MOSAIC

Thank you.

I find that fairly confusing. Of course, at my age a lot of things are making less sense.
 
MOST all planes that have <59kts stall speed clean, were not CERTIFIED with more than 4 seats (have to look at your TCDS regardless of how many seats shipped in the plane when it was new) are good to go with drivers license medical sport these days.

BASIC is much more open, includes night, IFR, and no seat limit but a 6 pax limit (sport is only 1 pax), also you can go up to FL180, where as sport it’s the higher of 10k MSL or 2k AGL, so this would be the choice if you have a 185, beaver, 206, etc


My big takeaway, if you have had a medical and it expired, go basic, you just get a local doc in the box to do your checklist, nothing gets sent to the feds, if you have a issue on the checklist you can fix it and then go back to the doc, no penalty.

If you have never had a medical and don’t want to deal with getting a medical, go sport.

You can also CFI on ether As they allow you to act as PIC, and since you’re making money off your instructors ticket, good to go

If your medical was revoked you are cooked on BOTH until you resolve the issue with the FAA.


If I wasn’t flying for $$ I’d let my 1st class fully expire and go basic with zero hesitation
 
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Bob Turner said:
Did the ground school. I need to revise my notes - starting to confuse BasicMed with Mosaic/Sport. I will do the research for next time, but a little chart might be useful - BasicMed has a critical distinction that Sport does not - something about actually holding a third class at one point.

It does seem that a major difference is night flight.

I'll work on the table . . .

Another thing I used to be good at was insurance issues and CFI liability. I am now getting conflicting information. Doesn't affect me; I now carry the SAFE insurance - but I get assurances that instructing an owner in his/her aircraft means I am an additional insured, but oh-by the way, if I want a waiver of subrogation it will be $200. Those two ideas conflict.
Click to expand...

If I instruct, or contract, in someone’s plane I’m added as named insured to their policy at their expense, I also have them sign a waiver and that waiver also states that if they have insurance I am added as such

There is also this product
www.skywatch.ai

Flexible CFI Aircraft Renters Insurance | SkyWatch

Say goodbye to just annual policies. Introducing the first-ever flexible aircraft renters insurance. Designed for CFIs in mind. Plans by the day, week, month, and year.
www.skywatch.ai www.skywatch.ai

Allows you to buy insurance just for a day or week etc

Never had a claim with them so I don’t know how they are there, but option
 
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Thanks Jack. That helps - did not know about the 10,000 foot limit. Poor study habits.

On the insurance, for a CFI what you want is a "tail." What can happen is you do a Flight Review and one year plus ten months later there is a crash involving your student and maybe his neighbor's kids. Not your fault, of course - you cannot control dumb stuff with a simple flight review.

But the plaintiff attorneys will name everybody - pilot's estate, Cessna, mechanic, and unfortunately, you.

As far as I know, SAFE is the only insurer that does that.
 
Bob Turner said:
Thanks Jack. That helps - did not know about the 10,000 foot limit. Poor study habits.

On the insurance, for a CFI what you want is a "tail." What can happen is you do a Flight Review and one year plus ten months later there is a crash involving your student and maybe his neighbor's kids. Not your fault, of course - you cannot control dumb stuff with a simple flight review.

But the plaintiff attorneys will name everybody - pilot's estate, Cessna, mechanic, and unfortunately, you.

As far as I know, SAFE is the only insurer that does that.
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No worries :)


Has there been a case where this CFI event even made it to court?
 
Don't know. It would have to be anecdotal - I do know of mechanics getting "so" involved, and, while expensive, it didn't make it into the record books. I suppose we could ask SAFE or NAFI?

As to getting to court - stand by for the expense of a simple deposition. Do not go to one without a lawyer. Opinion.

Generally, you can identify risks by the size of the premium - and if that is true in a limited market like aviation, CFIs are at twice the risk of non-instructor pilots.

A few years ago an Avemco rep told me she thought an insurance "tail" for instructors would be impossible to do. As far as I can tell, Avemco CFI insurance still does not have a tail.
 
Bob Turner said:
Don't know. It would have to be anecdotal - I do know of mechanics getting "so" involved, and, while expensive, it didn't make it into the record books. I suppose we could ask SAFE or NAFI?

As to getting to court - stand by for the expense of a simple deposition. Do not go to one without a lawyer. Opinion.

Generally, you can identify risks by the size of the premium - and if that is true in a limited market like aviation, CFIs are at twice the risk of non-instructor pilots.

A few years ago an Avemco rep told me she thought an insurance "tail" for instructors would be impossible to do. As far as I can tell, Avemco CFI insurance still does not have a tail.
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I just go named as it gives me full coverage, same as owner

But taking something like that to court would both cost me and the one litigating $$, I’d think with the super slim chance of success it would be more cost to the sue happy folks than me, as I think that case would be near impossible to prove beyond a preponderance of evidence in civil court

As a CFI or DPE we can only sample where that pilot was at that capture of time, the resolution on their skills 4mo out is fuzzy, year +? forgetaboutit!

I’m comfortable, sure, but I’d think you have to be worth mega bucks to have some leach toss big lawyer bucks at a total Hail Mary lawsuit like that
 
Back to the Mosaic - One of my students had a little kerfluffle with his BasicMed exam. Not totally sure what happened, but it had very little to do with the actual exam - no, nothing to do with the MD.

Turns out that, even though I keep up with these guys, he had no idea that he could continue to fly without the BasicMed, even though he would be restricted to day, below 10,000, and a single passenger. He has not been outside those parameters for literally years!

It took me several tries to get him to understand the new rules, and the fact that he can continue to fly. That's my fault, as the designated instructor around here.

I am thinking of a handout, based on my original thoughts coupled with your revisions - thank you both. I will post it here for further examination prior to sending to my students.


Back to the lawyers - it costs almost nothing to name a bunch of entities, once you are committed to the basic lawsuit. That is where your insurer provides the defense lawyer.

I am reminded of the accident in front of my house - car/motorcycle and an injury. No stop sign involved, but a "T" intersection. The lawsuit itself was against the motorist, but while they were at it they named me for an unkempt tree 200 feet from the intersection, and a neighbor maybe 1000 feet from the scene. I had a receipt for trimming said tree the prior month!

The lawyers for my insurer gathered in my kitchen - I offered the receipt, and they laughed - "We'll just give them ten grand - far cheaper than going to court even for a quick hearing. Sure you would win, but our company would be out way more than ten grand!"
 
Bob Turner said:
Back to the Mosaic - One of my students had a little kerfluffle with his BasicMed exam. Not totally sure what happened, but it had very little to do with the actual exam - no, nothing to do with the MD.

Turns out that, even though I keep up with these guys, he had no idea that he could continue to fly without the BasicMed, even though he would be restricted to day, below 10,000, and a single passenger. He has not been outside those parameters for literally years!

It took me several tries to get him to understand the new rules, and the fact that he can continue to fly. That's my fault, as the designated instructor around here.

I am thinking of a handout, based on my original thoughts coupled with your revisions - thank you both. I will post it here for further examination prior to sending to my students.


Back to the lawyers - it costs almost nothing to name a bunch of entities, once you are committed to the basic lawsuit. That is where your insurer provides the defense lawyer.

I am reminded of the accident in front of my house - car/motorcycle and an injury. No stop sign involved, but a "T" intersection. The lawsuit itself was against the motorist, but while they were at it they named me for an unkempt tree 200 feet from the intersection, and a neighbor maybe 1000 feet from the scene. I had a receipt for trimming said tree the prior month!

The lawyers for my insurer gathered in my kitchen - I offered the receipt, and they laughed - "We'll just give them ten grand - far cheaper than going to court even for a quick hearing. Sure you would win, but our company would be out way more than ten grand!"
Click to expand...

I agree on the flyer would be great, honestly a big view picture for medicals would be great to and to folks after a discovery flight so they don’t get wrapped up in a medical tailspin

That said naming a lawsuit take a few bucks, but following through on it costs vastly more, spending those bucks on a near vertical fight, I’m just not that worried, I have money and assists, but for the cost to come after me post crash years after a BFR, I’m just not worried

This isn’t one of those things that a law firm is going to take on pro bono or on contingency, it ain’t going to get your firm in the public eye, and it’s got a super low chance of winning

For the average student they’d be looking at taking out their retirement to force fund a case that’s highly unlikely to be won

For younger and even working class students, they simply don’t have the funds to follow through and a civil case like that, especially since it’s going to have to be multiple appeals, loss after loss, and even then the chance of them winning is near nil.

They’d be much more able to afford and have a slightly higher chance at mutual combat frankly
Lol
 
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Okay, I think I am ready:

Modernization Of Special AirworthIness Certification = Mosaic (I hate acronyms, especially forced ones)

A pilot may fly under Mosaic with a drivers license only, so long as he/she has not flunked an FAA medical exam without reinstatement. If he/she never attempted an FAA medical, there is no problem flying Mosaic, or Sport Pilot.

Restrictions are:
Maximum clean stall speed 59 knots (67.8 mph). Up to 4 seats per the type certificate. Daytime only, and below 10,000 feet or 2000' above terrain, whichever is higher. Only one passenger - 2 souls on board absolute max. Cannot fly IFR, even if rated.

If you want to fly at night, then BasicMed:

Restrictions are:
No more than 12,500 lbs gross weight, no more than 7 seats, no higher than 18,000 feet, no faster than 250 kts. Can fly night, can fly IFR if rated.

Must have a physical exam by a licensed MD (or DO) every four years, and complete an on-line course every two years. Must have held a third class medical at some point after July 14, 2006. That is, your third class could expire on July 15, 2006, and you are good for BasicMed forever. Just do not try for another 3rd class and flunk, or you are no good for either of these!
Must hold a current drivers license.

I think I may need to add a tighter statement about previous medicals- the below is true for both Sport/Mosaic and BasicMed:

  • If you have applied for a medical certificate, you must have been found eligible for issuance of at least a third class medical certificate at the time of your most recent application.
  • You cannot have had your most recent medical certificate suspended or revoked, or had a special issuance withdrawn.
  • You cannot know of a medical condition that would make you unable to operate an aircraft safely.
And the 250 knot restriction is an actual speed restriction under BasicMed, but it is an airplane Vne under Sport/Mosaic.

You cannot fly for hire under either of these very liberal policies, except as a flight instructor.

Now - most of our aircraft have stall speeds below 59 knots - but watch out for the Mooney MSE with increased gross weight - here is an interpretation by Gleim. I found other similar interpretations on line:

  • Pilot Privilege (Sport Pilot Certificate): For someone flying with only a sport pilot certificate, the aircraft’s VS1 (clean stall speed) must not exceed 59 knots (as originally certified by the manufacturer—not after modifications).


I cannot think of another common four place light aircraft that has a Vs1 above 59 knots. We could list them here?
 
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Bob Turner said:
Okay, I think I am ready:

Modernization Of Special AirworthIness Certification = Mosaic (I hate acronyms, especially forced ones)

A pilot may fly under Mosaic with a drivers license only, so long as he/she has not flunked an FAA medical exam without reinstatement. If he/she never attempted an FAA medical, there is no problem flying Mosaic, or Sport Pilot.

Restrictions are:
Maximum clean stall speed 59 knots (67.8 mph). Up to 4 seats per the type certificate. Daytime only, and below 10,000 feet or 2000' above terrain, whichever is higher. Only one passenger - 2 souls on board absolute max. (not sure that is correct - what if a CFI is in the right seat?) Cannot fly IFR, even if rated.

If you want to fly at night, then BasicMed.

Restrictions are:
No more than 12,500 lbs gross weight, no more than 7 seats, no higher than 18,000 feet, no faster than 250 kts (not sure whether this is a speed limit or a Vne). Can fly night, can fly IFR if rated.

Must have a physical exam by a licensed MD every four years, and complete an on-line course every two years. Must have held a third class medical at some point after July 14, 2006. That is, your third class could expire on July 15, 2006, and you are good for BasicMed forever. Just do not try for another 3rd class and flunk, or you are no good for either of these!
Must hold a current drivers license.

You cannot fly for hire under either of these very liberal policies, except as a flight instructor.

Now - most of our aircraft have stall speeds below 59 knots - but watch out for the Mooney MSE with increased gross weight - I am still studying that one. I cannot think of another common four place light aircraft that has a Vs1 above 59 knots. We could list them here?

Thanks for helping on this - it is not yet well understood by your average aviator.
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I think it’s max 6 pax, plus you as pilot, not seats

A CFI is not considered a pax

Think the plane can’t go over 250 per TCDS, same way you can’t take a 14k MGTOW plane and only load it to 12,499lbs
 
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Thanks. That's a pretty short list - I will double check and correct. I expected more errors than that
 
Let's dissect this - directly from FAA website:

Aircraft Requirements​

  • Any aircraft authorized under federal law to carry not more than 7 occupants
  • Has a maximum certificated takeoff weight of not more than 12,500 pounds

Operating Requirements​

  • Carries not more than six passengers
  • Operates under VFR or IFR, within the United States, at or below 18,000 feet MSL, not exceeding 250 knots
 
And here is the AOPA interpretation for Mosaic occupants:

Aircraft Seating: Aircraft can have up to 4 seats, though sport pilots are still strictly limited to one pilot and one passenger

So a CFI would be two pilots. Maybe AOPA got the wording slightly off?

You need to be a lawyer . . .

I think I may need to add a tighter statement about previous medicals:

  • If you have applied for a medical certificate, you must have been found eligible for issuance of at least a third class medical certificate at the time of your most recent application.
  • You cannot have had your most recent medical certificate suspended or revoked, or had a special issuance withdrawn.
  • You cannot know of a medical condition that would make you unable to operate an aircraft safely.
And the 250 knot restriction is an actual speed restriction under BasicMed, but it is an airplane Vne under Sport/Mosaic.

I will change my post after we have a chance to look at these.
 
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And on the Mooney 201/M20J:

I have found two opinions - one, the basic Mooney has a Vs1 of 59 knots - so, eligible, no question.
There was a service bulletin that, for some reason, if accomplished, boosts that to 61 KCAS - so, not eligible?
Has to do with max gross weight, which the bulletin increased from something like 2760 to 2900#.

But here is Gleim's take:


  • Pilot Privilege (Sport Pilot Certificate): For someone flying with only a sport pilot certificate, the aircraft’s VS1 (clean stall speed) must not exceed 59 knots (as originally certified by the manufacturer—not after modifications).
I put the red color in that quote. I don't know if the FAA accepts Gleim statements at face value, but if I were a Mooney driver, I would rely on that statement, and I am quite sure that I would not wind up at Guantanamo if it were found to be in error.
 
We posted at the same time. So we agree:

the 250 knot restriction is an actual speed restriction under BasicMed, but it is an airplane Vne under Sport/Mosaic.
 
One point that is great for sport that many CFIs don’t talk about with new students.

There are MANY medical issues that can be overcome but take time, ie provide testing some kid has been off “ADHD” drugs for X amount of time, or someone doesn’t drink for x amount of time after a DUI, etc.

Now if someone is learning to fly just for fun, just go sport, duh

BUT if someone wants to go pro, or end up being able to fly night/instrument the best bet is go sport.

First learn and build the hours and experience under sport while you wait the FAA’s silly clocks out, and then take the checkrides for PPL/IFR/CPL etc
 
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