Garmin GTR-200 GTR-205 non-TSO radios

curtistdc said:
Sorry to wake up an old thread but I had a thought while searching about the non tso radio dilemma. I was talking with the ia I am working with about where our local fsdo is in the subject and they are stuck on the tso requirement for radios.

My question that I now pose is if you look at the aca website the radio they install on new aircraft is the gtr 200b, which is not tso. Does that trump the requirement due to the fact it is installed on the new aircraft under the same tcds. Therefore buy removing the original 1976 installed radio and installing a new replacement radio same as installed on a new aircraft. It is a simple minor alteration and tso is not a factor? Just a thought......
Scott
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was your airplane originally equipped with a radio when it was built? what was it?
 
Thats the tricky part of it in my situation I do not know what radio it had when it was new because the logs have not been found yet or they were destroyed in a fire in 2021 possibly when some wild fires came through and burned the previous owners house down. it spared the shop and we have found some of the stuff 337s and manuals. I am hoping as they clean things out they will show up. I gave them incentive by telling them I will give them another $5,000 if they come up with the logs.

It has a radio frame and it came equipped with an antenna that could not have been installed without doing it before it was covered. The radio is not in its frame there is a narco vor installed with the radio rack above it. I cant identify the rack. It also has the speaker and microphone installed also that came from the factory I believe.

The question come down to the fact that It was originally certified in 76 with a radio. I am not sure how they certified these plane back then whether each plane was signed off by the DAR assigned to Bellanca on a one by one basis or was it produced under the a production certificate assigned to Bellanca by the FAA. I would think that the new aircraft coming off the line from the factory all are made under a production certificate ( forgive me if I am not using the proper terms I have been out of things for a while. I worked for a company when I first got out of A+P school that had been making spare part Piper super cubs for many years and each one was built on pipers type certificate the FAA finally said to them they need their own production certificate because they didn't think Piper needed to be responsible for the aircraft they were manufacturing. Ultimately they got their own production certificate and began producing their own version of a piper super cub. With that production certificate they were able to use what parts they deemed Airworthy under their production certificate. Those parts could be sourced from any vender as long as they could prove traceability and stuff like that.

So if aca has deemed the radio in question as an airworthy radio and it is part of their production certificate And the aircraft are still being produced under the same type certificate then I my eyes the radio in question should be legal. It may be required that it be installed in accordance with the aca drawings but I believe it should be legal.

The manufacture that I worked for was putting all sorts of crazy stuff in the panels. I personally thought it was a joke building a super cub with car stereos in them and stuff like that. They would put anything in the panel that would fit all based on what the salesmen were selling the customers not what I would have thought would have been necessary equipment for a vfr aircraft. These aircraft at that time were all still being deemed airworthy by a DAR on a one by one basis at that time and they got their production certificate at a later date finally. Forgive me if I am incorrect in my memories it has been almost 18 years I think since I was there. I ended up leaving after only being there for 6 months or so. Production work wasn't for me and I left to go run a maintenance facility.

I know I am rambling but my point is that if it is good enough for ACA and they are making type certificated aircraft with the radio in question then would that not be the approved data needed for the installation, making a non tso radio legal for installation. What is safer an aircraft with a good radio or one without? There is no question that the radio in question is not better than some of the crap slide in replacement tso radio's that are out there. I remember in my flight instructor days 3 radio failures in one week with tso'd radios.

More thoughts to ponder over.....
Scott
 
just as another data point, my '77 Super D left the factory without a radio so I don't think there was a hard standard back then
 
My FSDO insists it is illegal. They absolutely have to come up with a regulation before they can violate me.

I have a whole stack of guidance that indicates it is ok, and an honest-to-God FAR that says a transponder need not be TSO. I anxiously await a single rule that says we cannot use the 200. The 200B is PMA with another Garmin instrument, so I wouldn't lean on that route.

Please post the regulation that your FSDO cites. My FSDO would be delighted to violate me!
 
Bob Turner said:
My FSDO insists it is illegal. They absolutely have to come up with a regulation before they can violate me.

I have a whole stack of guidance that indicates it is ok, and an honest-to-God FAR that says a transponder need not be TSO. I anxiously await a single rule that says we cannot use the 200. The 200B is PMA with another Garmin instrument, so I wouldn't lean on that route.

Please post the regulation that your FSDO cites. My FSDO would be delighted to violate me!
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I saw the pma version and didn't understand what they were referring to on that one. So with another instrument it is legal is that how it works? What is the other instrument? ACA installs it with a Garmin transponder is that the ticket for a legal install?
Scott
 
A lot of it depends on what was originally installed. If there was a TSO radio installed when the plane was built, then you'd likely need a TSO'd radio to replace it, and vice-versa. As the story goes, the many King KX-170 radios that were out there in the GA fleet were non-TSO and it wasn't an FAR violation. The 'why' of it is above my pay grade but I've got a GTR200B going into my '77 Super D rebuild
 
Bartman said:
A lot of it depends on what was originally installed. If there was a TSO radio installed when the plane was built, then you'd likely need a TSO'd radio to replace it, and vice-versa. As the story goes, the many King KX-170 radios that were out there in the GA fleet were non-TSO and it wasn't an FAR violation. The 'why' of it is above my pay grade but I've got a GTR200B going into my '77 Super D rebuild
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The funny thing is I really liked the kx 170b radios they were bullet proof compared to some of the others. I knew of a 135 operator that would run them in their fleet of beech 18's because then the rain leaked into the plane thought the window they were the only radios that wouldn't crap out. And that was a single pilot ifr operator over the cascades every day. Nasty conditions.
Scott
 
I liked them too. Had one in an Aztec I owned for a couple of years. everyone says they were not TSO'd but I never checked mine
 
If there was a TSO radio installed when the plane was built, then you'd likely need a TSO'd radio to replace it, and vice-versa. As the story goes,

"Likely" isn't an FAR, and an inspector will need more than a gut feeling to violate you. And a PMA is not a TSO. If you find that a certain part must be TSO'd for installation (seatbelts and tires come to mind, although again you need a regulation) then a PMA might not do.
 
We had twin KX 170s in our Mooney. Superb radios for their time. The KX 175 was the TSO version, and back then the feeling was that part 135 operations needed TSO. I think we would have had a difficult time finding that regulation, although there are certain IFR/ over the water 135 operations that need "approved" nav gear.

If you do a search, and a lot of reading, you will find that the FAA routinely tries to violate folks for installing non-TSO avionics. So far what we hear is they just go away after a few months and leave you alone.
 
So there is a very bad picture of the back of the rack on my plane. Does anyone have an Idea of what radio that may belong to. It looks kind ofback of rack.webp small for some of those old big radios. I think there may have been another plug off to the left. It doesn't make sense that there would only be two wires. I should have taken a better picture.
Scott
 
Ok I feel like a fool now the vor Below is actually a nav com. Escort 110. I just never payed that much attention to things as I was focused on the rest of the plane.
Scott
 
Bob Turner said:
You will be happy. The 200 display and memory functions are better than the 225. And remember, the internal intercom is the best I have ever tried.

I just copied and pasted - no special effort.

And not true - you can use non-TSO com, nav, and transponders IFR.
If you want to operate part 135 or 121, further research is necessary.

And the -200 is a minor alteration - logbook entry.

The FSDO tried to make it a major alteration - not the radio installation, but the non-TSO part. They practically forced me to apply for a field approval, which I did under protest. They are obliged to respond in writing - they have not, after eight months.
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So Bob, I have been following this thread and my head is still spinning, but are you saying that an A&P mechanic can install say a Garmin 225 TSO’d with just a logbook entry and no 337 as well as the 200 B non TSO’D is just a logbook entry and no 337 as well. I swear I hate the Regs. It seems like they can be interpreted 8 million different ways with no right answer.
 
Runway has good drainage. It usually dries up within 2 days after a real hard rain.
There are a couple of low spots that hold water, Keeping to the east side avoids most.
 
Can I answer with a question? What, exactly, is it about a radio installation that would make it a major alteration?

Once you determine that it is not major, then all you need is acceptable data, which the FAA has kindly provided in AC 20-67B. Then it is logbook entry. How simple is that?
 
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