Ride is scheduled

aftCG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2018
Messages
154
Location
Tacoma, WA
#21
@JimParker256 im sorry but I have to defend us “kids”. I’ve gotten better knowledge from the younger cfi’s than the old ones that don’t know specifics. Experience helps you to more quickly problem solve a situation, getting that experience comes with time(in an airplane, not years). A 60 year old cfi can in no way compare themselves to a 23 year old cfi. A 60 year old cfi that only flew a 172 is much different than a 23 year old cfi that has flown 1000 hours teaching in 20 types of aircraft. Can’t compare!

Down talking the next generation is only going to kill aviation. I always tell the old guys against kids to keep their planes well kept, because we’ll be owning them one day 😉
Clifford,
Bashing the young guy is nothing new. They were doing it 22 years ago when I learned to fly. I even made reference to my 21 year old "punk a**" instructor in an earlier post. Truth is, he was very good and like most pilots I still hear his voice in my head at appropriate times. I even use his teaching methodology which is basically: If it's not going to bend the plane, get us killed or get my ticket pulled I will let my student hang themselves - plenty good if necessary.

Sadly, Jim is correct in that many people who instruct only do it as a stepping stone. It's not a generational thing, it's the nature of the ratings pilots earn. Truth is most people suck at teaching, or at least lack the compassion required to be good at it. An old fart who has only been teaching in a C172 would be a pretty boring dude, you are correct.

A 23 year old with 20 types under his/her belt who has passion for being a flight instructor is more of a unicorn than a regular occurrance. For every guy like yourself there are 8 that are just waiting for "the call", and they'll hand their student load off on the next 260 hour wonder kid and not look back.

As for keeping the plane in good condition for the next generation, my primary motiviation for reinstatement was to teach my three sons to fly. I'll give the damn thing to them if they stick it out.
 

Clifford Daly

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
149
#22
Its not the YOUNG guy it’s the NEW guy. Wrong phrase... the FNG has been around a long time!

Like many early jobs, it is a stepping stone. But with 22 bucks an hour, bad weather, down airplanes, how could anyone stay a flight instructor forever?! After 1000 hours though, even the bad teachers are smart with knowledge and better with flying. These are ages 20 to even 45 year old career changes though, not just kids. And that 1 in 8 is all ages!

I hope no one takes any disrespect from this, but I’m probably the youngest one in this group by years. (@Bartman is there a way to get stats about members and ages?!). It’s not that I’m the only one that wants to fly taildraggers.... it’s that this niche is becoming harder and harder to become apart of. It’s kinda up to us all to pull the young people in, and show them why we fly tight patterns and what it feels like to use full deflection of the controls. Bashing only makes things worse.

All the luck to your kids! Attached is a picture of me and my dad when he gave me my final checkout in the t-6. Some of the best flights I’ve had is with him! I’m here trying to make sure there’s other people for me and your kids to go out and fly with in 40 years in a tailwheel when everything else is fully automated in the sky!
 

Attachments

donv

Active member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
36
Location
Portland, OR
#23
I had a very sharp young instructor work with me last year when I did my reinstatement. He is early 20s, and a few months after we finished up, he got enough time to get hired at the airlines-- so not a high time guy when we were working together.

They key, though, is that he loves to teach, and to help his students learn. Far too many instructors, whether old or young, high time or low time, just don't have that love for teaching. And that makes all the difference.
 

Bob Turner

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Messages
402
#24
There is a reason that the airlines look for 1500 hours minimum. Experience gives you a depth that few brand new CFIs have. I see examples every day - about the time they get the necessary experience, the airlines snap them up.

Long patterns, blowing dust in others' hangars, blocking the runway, rattling on and on with readbacks - it takes experience to learn these things. I have 21,000 hours and still learn stuff every day.
 

Bob Turner

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Messages
402
#25
And age? 78. Champ hours - under a thousand. Cub hours - over 5000. Own the same airplane? 57 years. You will see what they are driving at when you reach 45.

21 year olds do learn quicker - motor skills, anyway. It is all that other stuff that takes years - how to get along with a spouse, how to be polite on the freeway, . . .
 

Clifford Daly

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
149
#26
Many foreign carriers are 250, 500, 750 hours and are all fine. It all depends on the person. Got hangar blasted by the “10,000 hour pilot” a couple weeks ago. Just finished sweeping the hangar too!

Long story short, everything you just listed can be seen in every aged pilot. Not saying younger is any better, but older guys do just as long of readbacks and long patterns. That’s why I said, it’s hours and experiences in a plane, not age.

Different views I guess, I don’t put down anyone. I’m the one here saying young and old all have their pros and cons. Older generations just can’t get that in their mind! So I probably won’t see what everyone is “driving at” but I can say, a younger person coming onto this forum reading this thread, do you think they’d want to join? Probably not.
 

donv

Active member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
36
Location
Portland, OR
#27
No, the reason the airlines want 1500 hours (or, in some cases 1,000 or 1,200 hours) is because that's the legal minimum for a 121 first officer.
 

Bob Turner

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Messages
402
#28
I mean no disrespect.

Are you sure you are not going to be any better at this when you are older and more experienced?
 

Clifford Daly

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
149
#29
When I’m older no, when I have more hours yes. You could be 40 years older and only have flown 200 hours. Or fly 2000 hours in two years as a 25 year old. Age isn’t a factor!
 

Bob Turner

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Messages
402
#30
Every day I get just a teeny bit more knowledgable. Sometimes it is from books, some times from mistakes, sometimes from watching others' mistakes, sometimes from the iPad or TV, and sometimes through a process called insight.

You'll see.
 

Clifford Daly

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
149
#31
There’s a few types of people. One is someone who could start a project and 20 years later be rolling it out of the garage. Then there’s someone who will knock it out in a summer. Is there any more knowledge learned by either one? Because the same skills went into it, the same mistakes were made, the same books were read. I’d personally rather learn from the person who did it in the summer!

I’m done explaining myself here. Too many people that think just because they’re older that they know so much more.
 

donv

Active member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
36
Location
Portland, OR
#32
Clifford, I was a 19 year old CFI with 350 hours once. Now I'm a 52 year old CFI with 7600 hours. So I have some perspective.

When I went looking for a CFI to train my kids, I looked for a younger CFI-- and found one-- because I knew the younger person would relate to my kids and would be able to teach them the latest stuff. I'm still reverting to early learning from the 1980s... which is both good and bad, but not the latest thing.

So please stick around... I value your input and perspective.
 

JimParker256

1965 Champion 7ECA (O-200)
Joined
Apr 3, 2018
Messages
117
Location
McKinney, TX
#33
@Clifford Daly, I apologize. Clearly I've offended you – and perhaps an entire generation of pilots – and that was not my intent. I was trying to thank @aftCG for renewing his CFI, so that he could train and mentor more pilots. I guess I derailed that (sorry @aftCF) with my rant about the two local training mills.

There are, no doubt, some excellent CFIs that just happen to be young and low-time. Heck, we all start that way. I'm the Young Eagles coordinator for our local EAA chapter, and many of the youngsters we get to fly with are amazing kids. We just awarded a $10,000 scholarship to one kid who just impresses the heck out of me! So I do NOT believe that the "kids today" are the source of any problems...

The fact is that 95% or more of the CFIs at these ATP mills have spent their entire aviation career at those schools. They earned their Private, Commercial, Instrument, and CFI (or even CFII) at those schools in minimum time, flying with other CFIs who went through the same process, and evaluated by check airmen who are constantly exposed to the graduates of that program. It's the only way the schools can hire enough CFIs, and it's the only way the students can earn a (very meager) living and obtain the time they need to be able to fly for the airlines. And we desperately need those pilots. So I don't begrudge anyone's decision to go that route.

But if just one CFI at that school starts teaching that you should extend downwind "just a bit" so you can have a slightly longer-than-normal final approach to get everything stabilized (as the FAA wants/requires), he's teaching 10-20 other future CFIs to do the same thing. It becomes a self-perpetuating problem, exaggerated by each successive generation, and no one at the school even realizes it has become a problem. It's like the frog in the pan of water on the stove. The temperature rises slowly enough he never realized he's being cooked...

Those new CFIs may be absolutely amazing instructors, but they are teaching their students what they were taught, and it's highly likely that they've never flown with anyone with a different experience base – someone who would point out that the AIM recommends a 1-mile pattern, not a 7-mile pattern, and that you CAN actually establish a stabilized approach from a mile out... They are immersed 24x7 in their school's culture and activities – they have to be to succeed. It is not the kids' fault – it's the school's fault. (And the school is probably run by old farts like me!)

It's the same challenge as a university student who earns a Business degree, then goes on to earn an MBA from the same school. The same 4-5 key professors teach all those courses, so their biases, viewpoints, and quirks become embedded in the next generation of MBAs. Their approaches to analysing problems become ingrained in the student population, along with their "canned responses" to those situations. Many businesses express strong preferences for candidates who attend a completely different school for their MBAs. Diversity and inclusion are important, even in education, because having people with different backgrounds and experiences matters when facing challenging situations. The same is true for aviation... Getting someone with a different experience base teaching our future pilots is important.

So, again I apologize for expressing myself poorly in my first post, and for derailing @aftCG's thread.
 

Bob Turner

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Messages
402
#34
There are always exceptions to every rule. And it is true that after 65 the average person starts a rather slow mental and physical slide - that's why we retire airline pilots at 65. And dementia is a problem.

But I am going to stick to my guns - on average, a 50 year old professional (pilot, lawyer, engineer, professor) is going to be better at what he/she does than a green 25 year old. That is one reason we don't start you out as Captain and then move you to the right seat when the next crop of new hires shows up.

So instead of apologizing, I shall repeat: you'll see . . .