Scout Vertical Compass Card Question

[Bob Turner]

I like both of those opinions. I have flown the vertical card and like it, but I do not like it $700 worth. A compass is required, but it is now emergency equipment. Make sure it sort of works.

In the olden days all I had was a compass and a watch. Seven transcontinentals in a J3 that way - didn’t know how to use a radio. Now I take a Garmin 496 and a RAM mount kit. Easier.

The only time I have ever used a compass correction card is on an FAA written exam.

 

[Big Ed]

I have flown the vertical card and like it, but I do not like it $700 worth.

That's probably closest to my view. If I run across a used one for a reasonable price, I would probably grab it. So if I installed it myself and did not do the "swinging", at what point would that be detected and become an issue? At sale? During an accident investigation? Asking hypothetically, of course.

 

[BB57]

That's probably closest to my view. If I run across a used one for a reasonable price, I would probably grab it. So if I installed it myself and did not do the "swinging", at what point would that be detected and become an issue? At sale? During an accident investigation? Asking hypothetically, of course.

Personally, I noted my "old" cracked and dry (but passed lord knows how many annual inspections) wet compass was made in 1981. Since my 7KCAB is a 1967, the compass was obviously replaced at some point after during or after 1981. I never found a log entry for it. I also never found any entries indicating it had ever been swung, even after the new ACA wings and rebuild in 2007.

I suspect it's something that is just not seriously enforced. The aircraft logs can be inspected during a ramp check if you (are unwise enough to) have them aboard, but they are not required to be in the plane and unless you have obvious non AN grade hardware or other non aircraft items installed, they are not going to ask you to produce them for an inspection. Practically speaking, it is really an issue between you, your A&P, and the AP/IA that does your annual if he or she is different than your A&P.

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Hypothetically....

What's in a particular aircraft's log(s) now? Any mention of the compass? If not, who is to say it hasn't always had a vertical card compass, or that it was installed decades ago in a prior aircraft log, or was missed in a log entry for a comprehensive rebuild?

Someone would have to go to a lot of effort to look for and not find a log entry for a compass installation. Unless an improperly installed and improperly swung compass is a direct cause, or contributing cause of an accident, I doubt anyone would bother looking.

In terms of discovery at some future sale, if you bought an aircraft with a vertical card compass already in it, would you even bother to look for the log entry? I suspect most buyers would not.

 

[Big Ed]

All good points.

And about this ramp check. I've never seen one. I've never heard of one happening. Has anyone else?

 

[Bob Turner]

I typed this up to go after Ed's questions. It is now out of sequence, and you guys have adequately covered my points. Still, since I struggled to type it, here it is - I think I had added stuff about how often I have used compass correction cards, but it got lost . . .

Neither. As far as I can tell, in an accident they are only checking the obvious - flight review, medical, annual, transponder check. A nasty insurer might be looking for a way out, but none of the reputable underwriters will be looking for unrelated airworthiness stuff.

As for ramp checks, I have had quite a few. None, however, in light aircraft. I’d say your risk is darn near zero that anybody cares about your compass or it’s correction card. Both must be there - that’s the only thing you really need to worry about.

 

[Big Ed]

Based on that, I'll probably buy one and install myself, then try to figure out the correction card process. Probably does not require an MIT degree.

Next question: is there a requirement for the compass to be TSO? Or is it like the radio, where it only matters if you are doing certain kinds of operations? I can get a new certified PAI for about $350, or a used PAI or new non-certified Falcon for about 100 bucks less.

 

[Bob Turner]

Ha! Re-read all the above.

Did you know that legally we can no longer re-fill our wet compasses?

 

[Big Ed]

Ha! Re-read all the above.

Did you know that legally we can no longer re-fill our wet compasses?

Sooo ... you're saying technically I must use a TSO compass, but nobody is ever going to check?

 

[Bob Turner]

I am saying technically an IA/A&P cannot touch a compass. I don’t know about TSO - it may depend on under which part your aircraft was certified under. My compasses all came out of WWII bombers, before they had TSO.

 

[Big Ed]

I ran across a WWII Navy compass on eBay. Looked really cool and I briefly toyed with the idea of installing it. But it had about 12 disclaimers about being for display only.

 

[BB57]

Ha! Re-read all the above.

Did you know that legally we can no longer re-fill our wet compasses?

I ran across that little tid bit when I discovered my compass was dry. It's incredibly stupid and one of the FAA over reaches of statute and reg that is strangling general aviation.

My A&P said he couldn't fill it, but he also said he'd never know if I filled at when it came time for the next annual.

 

[BB57]

I ran across a WWII Navy compass on eBay. Looked really cool and I briefly toyed with the idea of installing it. But it had about 12 disclaimers about being for display only.

I came across a mint condition WWII drift meter at a gun show about 30 years ago. I passed on it as I didn't have a suitable plane to put it in, but I've always regretted not buying it anyway.

 

[BB57]

Sooo ... you're saying technically I must use a TSO compass, but nobody is ever going to check?

Disclaimer, I could we way off one some of all of this, but here are the impressions I've gotten on TSO.

1) My understanding is that the whole TSO thing is a can of worms, with risk averse A&Ps on one side afraid to install non TSO items, and federal overreach (or at least intentional silence when it comes to correcting misperceptions and over application of when a TSO is required) on the other. I think that's gone below the glide slope over the years as more inspectors out in the field come with paper qualifications but no actual grease under their fingernails from years of experience. Not knowing, they then default to saying "no" whenever possible and look for any opportunity to say "no" to avoid any risk. That's consistent across most of the regulatory interpretation and enforcement arms of federal government.

2) My understanding is that TSO'd equipment isn't required for Part 91 operations, it just needs to be signed off in the logbook by an A&P. However, once you start getting into commercial operations (Part 121 and Part 135), TSO starts to be a bigger deal, right down to the headsets the pilots use.

3) M understanding is that non TSO equipment installed via an approved 337 is still acceptable, it's just a lot harder to get 337 approval.

4) I've also gathered that the FAA has put the brakes on 337 approvals, in part because they were being inundated with 337s for minor alterations like substituting a Concord battery for a Gill, that should be covered under the discretion of an A&P or AP/IA. Bureaucratically speaking that's a downward spiral. Unknowing and overly officious inspectors dump on A&P and AP/IAs for using the judgement and authority given to them by the administrator, so they start covering their butts with otherwise needless 337s. The FAA then gets swamped and clamps down on 337s, which leaves the A&P and AP/IAs with no good options and few resources.

 

[Bob Turner]

Ha, again. Wag had a neat ten dollar kit to fix the Airpath - that ubiquitous 2 1/4" compass. Kit came with rubber diaphragm, new glass, a gasket, and best of all, genuine compass fluid, whatever that is. Easy-peezy.

Back in the olden days we could even re-varnish our wood props! No more . . .

I think you need TSO tags on your seatbelts. Not sure about anything else - we use non-TSO radios.

 

[Red Owl]

Regarding ramp checks...

I've seen three or four - back in the 90's or early 00's in Georgia. Note that the inspector can't get everybody in most cases. So sometimes even though there's a ramp check in progress you can come and go unmolested. Sometimes.

Don't know if they still do them though.

 

[Big Ed]

A few pages of tales in this thread over at POA: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/faa-ramp-check-anybody-ever-had-one.102338/

Sounds like a GA ramp check would be just a quick look at ARROW and pilot docs. Probably not going to be dismounting my compass to look for TSO stamp.

Sounds like the main risk to using a non-TSO compass would be 1) an IA might have an issue at annual if he recognized the brand as EA, or B) might get caught during a pre-buy inspection. Either way, corrective action would be pretty simple; buy a new, TSO compass and have it installed and swung.

 

[Bob Turner]

Now you are cooking.