Dynon Certified Marketing Survey

[Rick Ludtke]

Hi Rich,

Thanks for stopping by to post about your survey. Generally speaking, the category of airplanes we're discussing here are usually VFR only with very limited instrumentation. Even if there was a desire to install the instruments to make them IFR we're still talking about light planes where every pound of useful load is valuable. There are some Citabria variants where IFR equipment is routinely installed but those are more in the category of utility use where IFR certification makes them more commercially viable.

Having said that, the factory is moving towards autopilots in new planes and the interconnect between the two control sticks now includes a lug for attachment to an autopilot servo so we may be something of a market for you, more than we'd like to admit.

Can you maybe summarize what your system would replace and a summary of the weight of the components we'd be able to remove and what your replacement components would weigh?

I like the idea of a flat panel with attitude, heading, moving map, weather, traffic and engine displays all incorporated, especially if the black box driving everything is tolerant of aerobatics but I'm not well versed in these things except at work where I am forced to stare at these types of displays for long hours at all times of the day/night.

Thanks again, glad you found us, and looking forward to your reply. By the way, that little Pitts, is that from the Midwest kit and did you post a picture of it to FB recently?

Regards,
Bart

Hi Bart,

Thanks for responding!

As you know, American Champion sells complete Garmin EFIS systems in the new airplanes. I wanted to do two things with this post. The first, expose owners of these types who may be needing a panel refresh to the possibilities of Dynon SkyView HDX for far less money than the Garmin option on the new airplanes. Second, rather than assume there would be no interest in autopilots in this airplane market segment, try to learn if this group of owners actually did have interest in an autopilot.

This is because autopilots are becoming mainstream in general Aviation, like it or not. I grew up in and learned to fly in "old school" aviation, and even after coming to work for Dynon, wasn't firmly on the autopilot bandwagon, even though I designed autopilot and autothrottle pilot/system interfaces for The Boeing Company for many years. Autopilots are a work-load reduction tool that can enhance safety. And once I got over my "old school" self, realized that there isn't any good reason to keep GA from having the option to experience the same benefits in any aircraft.



I took the liberty of laying out what the system could look like in a Decathlon panel, as you can see there is a lot of room for other equipment. But the only thing Dynon can't provide that would be truly necessary is an intercom.


A complete VFR system with one 10" screen would consist of the following...
Panel Mounted Equipment:
SV-HDX110010" HD Touch Screen Display (a 7" display is also available) - Can provide the Primary Flight Display (PFD), The Moving Map NAV display, and the Engine Monitoring System display, among others.
EFIS-D10A Standby EFIS Display - Constantly provides Flight Information for cross-comparison and immediate availability if the Primary Flight Display source is lost.

SV-COM-X83 VHF Com Radio Control Panel (optional) - Provides interface with remote mounted Transceiver. Available in vertical or horizontal arrangements. Features tune by airport functionality.
SV-KNOB-PANEL Knob Control Panel (optional) - Available in vertical or horizontal arrangements. Provides direct-access controls for setting altitude and heading bugs, as well as the barometer.

Remotely Mounted Equipment:
SV-ADAHRS-200 Air Data, Attitude, Heading Reference System module, with OAT sensor - Generates the PFD.
SV-MAG-236 Remote Mounted Magnetometer - Allows the magnetometer to reside in a location on the airplane away from magnetic disturbances.
SV-GPS-2020 GPS Antenna/Receiver - WAAS-enabled, high-sensitivity, weatherproof, externally mounted GPS receiver/antenna.
SV-BAT-320 Back Up Battery - Provides the display and its systems a minimum of 45 minutes of electrical power.
SV-EMS-220 Engine Monitoring System module (optional) - Provides visibility of all engine parameters, alerts, and an integrated fuel computer.
SV-XPNDR-261 Mode S Transponder with ADS-B Out module (optional) - Requires no control panel, control menu is accessed on the display.
SV-ADSB-472 Dual Band ADS-B Receiver module (optional) - Provides traffic and weather on the PFD and MAP displays.
SV-ARINC-429 ARINC-429 interface model (optional) - Provides an ARINC-429 protocol interface with GPS IFR Navigators so that IFR flight plan will be displayed on the Map.

If an autopilot was available:
SV-AP-PANEL Autopilot Control Panel (option, as the autopilot can be controlled by a display menu) - Provides a panel-mounted interface for selecting control modes etc.
2 each SV32 or SV42 Servos, and a kit of installation mounts and associated installation hardware.

The display units are the heaviest pieces of equipment, with the 10" weighing 3 pounds. The Transceiver and Transponder modules each weigh one pound. The weights of very other module and control panel are just a few ounces each. Even with all the options, SkyView HDX will weigh far less than the equipment in the panel it replaces, while adding many more functions that didn't exist before.

SkyView HDX has a configurable automatic dimming system, along with the ability to be manually adjusted with an external control knob. All of the control panel back lights are connected to the dimming system. Plus, SkyView HDX has dimming signal outputs that can connect with third-party equipment to provide central control over all of the panel illumination.

Aerobatics do not present an issue for SkyView HDX. SkyView HDX can present Primary Flight Information in two different ways: The Primary Flight Display which has become the standard for primary flight information on electronic display systems, or an emulation of the traditional 6-pack. I mention this as some people prefer to monitor needles when performing aerobatic maneuvers. SkyView HDX provides the ability to do so at a touch of a button if desired.

I did recently post a picture of my 45" 1/5th scale scratch-build Pitts S-1 for electric R/C. This was designed using the original Pitts drawings left over from an airplane my father and I built. The geometry is accurately scaled, and it flies very much like the S-1E I used to compete with before I entered family-hood. The Pitts hangs in my office now, I haven't flown it in a while as I have been building a Vans RV-6.


I hope this answers all of your questions adequately.
Rick

 

[BB57]

Hi BB,
Thanks for the information. I'll make these improvements. To be honest, I have never fully understood the alphabet soup of the Bellanca system, despite the fact that I have maintained many of these airplanes for customers and friends over the years.
Rick

The Champs and Citabrias and Decathlon letters *mostly* make sense (there are a few exceptions) if you view them as a progression.

Let's start with the 7AC and the two letter series Champs:

Model 7AC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved October 18, 1945
Continental A-65-8 (see item 115 for Lycoming O-235-C)

The 7BCM and CCM used the next letters in the alphabet and added an "M" for military:

Model 7BCM (Army L-16A), 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved September 16, 1947
It was the same as 7AC except for power plant installation using a Continental C-85-8, -8F, -8J or -8FJ

Model 7CCM (Army L-16B), 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved July 12, 1948
It was the same as 7BCM except for a narrow range of power plants installed (a Continental C90-8F or C90-8FJ), increased fin area, auxiliary fuel wing tank and fuselage member changed.

Model 7DC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved July 12, 1948
It was the same as 7CCM except for the range of power plants used (a Continental C-85-8, -8F, -8J, or -8FJ

Model 7EC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved November 30, 1949
It was the same as the 7DC except for a Continental C90-12F or C90-12FJ engine.

Model 7FC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved March 27, 1957.
This was the same as the 7EC except for the tricycle gear.

Model 7GC, 2 PCL-SM (Normal Category), Approved October 3, 1958
The Model 7GC is generally similar to 7EC except for a modified fuselage structure as required for increase in gross weight and installation of a Lycoming O-290-D2B. This is also (I think) where the square wing tips came in.

Model 7HC, 3 PCL-SM (Normal Category), Approved August 6, 1959
The Model 7HC is generally similar to the 7GC except for a modified fuselage structure as required for additional rear seat capacity, tricycle type gear and control wheel type system in front seat.

Model 7JC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved February 24, 1960
The Model 7JC is generally similar to the 7EC except for a modified fuselage structure as required for installation of tricycle gear with single gear aft.

Now we get to the point where they started adding a third letter:

Jumping way ahead here just to keep the Champs in one group, we have the 1971 model "cheap Champ" with a 60 hp Franklin engine.
Model 7ACA, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved April 30, 1971. Franklin 2A-120A or 2A-120B
In this case, they added an "A " after "7AC" rather than calling it a "7LC", probably because of the similar horsepower to the 7AC and the intent to market it as a new version of the 7AC.

Jumping back to 1959:

Model 7GCA, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved November 17, 1959
The Model 7GCA is generally similar to the 7GC except for modifications as required for installation of a Lycoming O-320-A2B engine. In this case the "A" suffix to the "GC" appears to have referred to aerobatic capability.

Model 7GCB, 2 PCL-SM (Normal Category), Approved April 28, 1960
The Model 7GCB is generally similar to the 7GCA except for modified wing and fuselage structure as required for addition of wing flaps, increased wing area and increased rear seat weight limit. In this case the "B" indicated the flapped "B" wing to differentiate it from the 7GCA and it's non flapped "A" wing.

Model 7KC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved January 10, 1961
The Model 7KC is generally similar to the 7GCA except for modifications as required for reduced wing area, minor fairing and cabin interior changes, and controls in the front seat only. The oddity here is that it reverts to the next letter in the Champ alphabet series, rather than becoming the "7GCC".

Now we see the first of the 4 letter series:

Model 7GCBA, 2 PCLM (Restricted Agricultural Category Only), Approved February 2, 1962
This is a 7GCB modified for crop dusting, and in this case the 4the letter is an "A" for agricultural.

Model 7ECA, 2 PCL-SM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved August 5, 1964
The Model 7ECA is the first of the Citabria aircraft and is it was generally similar to the 7GC except for modifications required for installation of the O-200 A Continental (and later the O-235-C and C1) engine and the Citabria package which included a modified vertical tail assembly, windshield contour, rear seat windows and wide track main gear.
It's not real clear to me why this was called the "ECA" rather than the 7GCAA, with the 4th letter "A" denoting the Citabria package on the non flapped 7GCA aircraft. I'm guessing they wanted to link it back to the 7EC due to the 100 hp O-200 engine and its similarity to the C-90 powered 7EC.

Model 7GCAA, 2 PCLM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved July 30, 1965
The Model 7GCAA is generally similar to the 7ECA except for the installation of the Model 7GCB engine mount and engine, revised cowling and minor equipment and trim changes and using a Lycoming O-320-A2B, O-320-C2B, or O-320-A2D engine. Here the 4th letter "A" stands for the Citabria "A" package that applied to the 150 hp Citabrias. In other words it was the non flap winged, 150 hp, aerobatic, 7GCA with the Citabria "A" package suffix.

Model 7GCBC, 2 PCL-SM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved December 3, 1965
The Model 7GCBC is generally similar to the 7GCAA except for the installation of the Model 7GCB wings, wing struts, and flap system. In other words it's a 7GCAA with flaps. In this case the 4th letter "C" denotes the Citabria "C" package.

Model 7KCAB, 2 PCLM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved December 21, 1966
The Model 7KCAB is generally similar to the 7GCAA except for the installation of fuel injected engine, revised fuel system and modified oil system for limited inverted operation and has a Lycoming IO-320-E2A or IO-320-E2B, or later on an AEIO-320-E2B engine. This is the odd one in the bunch as it's a 7GCAA with inverted fuel and oil, and was marketed as the CItabria "B" package, so 7GCAB would have made perfect sense. But they called it the 7KCAB instead. K and G are not adjacent on the keyboard so it probably wasn't a typo. It also had nothing in common with the 7KC.

It's possible and even likely that Champion had planned to produce it with a shorter wing like the 7KC and named the design accordingly, but then put the 7GCAA wing on it instead but retained the "7KCAB” designator.

That makes sense when you consider that the original 8KCAB was similar to the 7KCAB, except for a shorter wing using a semi-symmetrical airfoil section and a beefed up fuselage structure. The 8 series aircraft are on a new type certificate certified under newer standards but the roots are solid 7 series.

Similarly the 8GCBC is a 7GCBC with longer span wings, beefier fuselage structure, a higher gross weight, and a 180 hp O-360.

 

[Bartman]

Rick,

Thanks for posting that information! It's interesting as hell to see it all listed out like that and I'd bet the weight would be insignificant given all of the old equipment it's replacing. The display looks a lot nicer than I would have guessed. Can the display be decluttered or can the pilot de-select some elements to simplify the information being displayed? I even do this at work, too many things to scan and it gets distracting.

I'm curious about one thing, for you to get certification to install these in the older Champion and Bellanca aircraft, wouldn't you need to design autopilot servo mounts in addition to getting the electronics certified in the types?

 

[Bob Turner]

All I know is - I would love to be legal for an approach through the coastal clouds. I am completely equipped, and do it12 x per year in VFR.

 

[Rick Ludtke]

Rick,

Thanks for posting that information! It's interesting as hell to see it all listed out like that and I'd bet the weight would be insignificant given all of the old equipment it's replacing. The display looks a lot nicer than I would have guessed. Can the display be decluttered or can the pilot de-select some elements to simplify the information being displayed? I even do this at work, too many things to scan and it gets distracting.

I'm curious about one thing, for you to get certification to install these in the older Champion and Bellanca aircraft, wouldn't you need to design autopilot servo mounts in addition to getting the electronics certified in the types?

Understand that you can install our equipment today. Our STC Airplane Model List (AML) includes nearly 600 makes and models, including the Citabria and Decathlon. The only thing not currently available to you is the autopilot. If we were to certify an autopilot, it would come as a complete kit with servo's, brackets, and all required hardware.

The display is very configurable, what is displayed at any given time is controllable by a menu, accessed by the menu button seen at the bottom of the screen. The layout shown below is the PFD on the left, Map on the right, and the engine information on the bottom. To the right of the Map is the Vertical Information Bar, which can be configured to show only information you want, or it can also be turn off. The system can support up to three display units. All of this information could be spread around multiple displays if desired.


The two knobs are multi functional, and can be used to control a wide variety of functions using selection menus. This makes the control panels optional. But the optional panels provide direct access to a specific function, avoiding the menus. Some of the menus appear below:


The system can connect with NAV radios via RS-232 serial protocol, or a GPS IFR Navigator using ARINC-429 protocol. This system meets the IFR requirements if the other required equipment is in place, and can be tested and certified by an Avionics shop every two year per regulation.

Anyone who would like to see the system in action should call our sales team and schedule a one-on-one Zoom meeting. Our sales guys have full simulators built on MS Flight Sim (in their homes) and they can show you how everything functions in flight over the internet.

For Sales Support:
Phone: +1 (425) 402-0433
Hours: 8:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. Pacific, M - F

Rick

 

[Bartman]

Rick,

It might seem antithetical to you but is there a bare bones, never-gonna-be-an-autopilot VFR configuration? There are a lot of people with almost that amount of information for flying VFR on their portable iPads but iPads don't quite provide aircraft grade displays or data quality.

Does Dynon have a VFR package that gives the bare minimum to support the flat panel with essentials like ADS-B info, GPS moving map, and basic aircraft grade heading and attitude, maybe over a moving VFR chart? I also like incorporating the engine information into that.Weight would be minimized, functionality would be at a level useful for us regular guys, and there would be a measurable improvement over the iPad/Foreflight option?

With a comm built in and an external intercom I'd be interested to know what a package like that would cost. Also, is all of this stuff available as non-TSO for experimentals?

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm as old school as they come. I'd still be using paper charts if Avare wasn't free for my android phone but I have to admit, a moving map with tcas info is a safety enhancement that I'd be silly to dismiss.

Thanks for all of the helpful info!
Bart

 

[Rick Ludtke]

Rick,

It might seem antithetical to you but is there a bare bones, never-gonna-be-an-autopilot VFR configuration? There are a lot of people with almost that amount of information for flying VFR on their portable iPads but iPads don't quite provide aircraft grade displays or data quality.

Does Dynon have a VFR package that gives the bare minimum to support the flat panel with essentials like ADS-B info, GPS moving map, and basic aircraft grade heading and attitude, maybe over a moving VFR chart? Weight would be minimized, functionality would be at a level useful for us regular guys, and there would be a measurable improvement over the iPad/Foreflight option?

With a comm built in and an external intercom I'd be interested to know what a package like that would cost. Also, is all of this stuff available as non-TSO for experimentals?

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm as old school as they come. I'd still be using paper charts if Avare wasn't free for my android phone but I have to admit, a moving map with tcas info is a safety enhancement that I'd be silly to dismiss.

Thanks for all of the helpful info!
Bart

Sorry Bart, my explanations obviously are not fully meeting your needs, so I'll keep trying...

The SkyView system is extremely modular. If you want IFR functionality, you connect the desired NAV equipment. If you want traffic and weather, you connect the ADS-B receiver. If you need a compliant transponder, you connect our transponder (some third party transponders can also be connected, or a third party transponder could co-exist outside of SkyView's networked devices), etc. The list I created in last post identified all of the required and available optional equipment you could choose from.

Our system will also display VFR, IFR, and Approach charts geo-synchronized with your position. Charts do require third-party subscriptions from companies like Seattle Avionics.

Dynon got its start in experimental aviation back in 2000. Several years ago we gained FAA approval in the form of an AML STC for the SkyView HDX system.

Check out the Dynon Certified Website: https://www.dynoncertified.com/, and contact Kyle in sales, he can do a better job leading you through all of the details than I can. He can even demonstrate the system over the internet for you.

Rick

 

[Big Ed]

Rick,

Do the autopilot servos have any impact on aerobatics?

 

[Rick Ludtke]

Rick,

Do the autopilot servos have any impact on aerobatics?

Hi Ed,
If Dynon decided to create and certify an autopilot installation, the servo bracketry would certainly be designed to meet the aerobatic category regulatory requirements. I am familiar with the control system, and so believe it is highly likely the locations that Dynon would choose for both the pitch and roll servos would be in the fuselage. The servos aren't very heavy. So I think the answer is no, the autopilot would have no negative impact on conducting aerobatics, from either a certification perspective or the pilot's operational perspective. The Dynon servos are stepper motors, which does place a small amount of drag on the control systems which can be detected by the pilot on the ground without air loads present. With air loads during manual flight, all concerns about this small amount of drag just disappear. The servos become undetectable.

 

[Explorer]

Rick,

Just completed the survey. I think like a lot of the responses, whether it is a Citabria, Decathlon or Scout they are Day VFR Fun Platforms imo. You can't get any more basic than the Scout and for a lot us that's what we are looking for. For me a digital Engine Monitoring System would be a nice and beneficial feature.

The stuff you produce for the Experimental Market is constantly improving - Hat's Off to Dynon!

I'm in partnership on an RV8. The former Owner in 2015 installed a Dynon 180 - Garmin 795 Nav Display - tethered to an Autopilot. Cruising at 8500' - 9500' VFR at 170 kts true. I can see the benefits of having an autopilot. In the Scout at 100 Kts on a good day @ 2500', not so much. Different mission.

Comment on the Dynon 180 - it's not bright enough in bright daylight. I believe you corrected that with the subsequent models. When on approach I scan the six pack airspeed indicator because of the dimness of the PFD speed tape.

With regards to the D10a. If it had an Engine Monitor System, something I really like about D180. It would be something I would consider for the Scout.

Best Regards, David.

 

[BB57]

To add some context that wasn't possible in the survey.
1) I own a 7KCAB, where weight and CG are issues for aerobatic category flight and ,much less so for normal category operation. I will upgrade the panel at some point and right now, the AV-30 and less so the G5 are primary contenders. Here's why:

- I have ADS-B-In in the form of a portable Stratux (meaning it is easily removed when not needed) that gives me very functional and readable combined weather, traffic and GPS moving map display on a 9.7" i-Pad. It also does it at quite frankly very low cost. It is also removable when weight is an issue.

- I do not have an artificial horizon or a DG, although the combination of a vertical card compass and the GPS/moving map on the i-Pad makes the DG mostly redundant for non IFR flight.

- I have no interest in adding an engine driven vacuum system, however I *might* be interested in pursuing IFR capability as I am instrument rated and NC does have issue with low lying cloud layers in the mornings that make filing IFR just to get on top, or land in an undercast potentially appealing. However there are limits to how much money I want to pour into a $60K aircraft.

- A larger issue is that no one ever certified the 7KCAB for IFR flight. The ECA, 7GCAA and 7GCBC, yes, but to my knowledge the 7KCAB has never been certified for IFR flight.

----

In terms of our PA-22/20-150, it will become our go to IFR aircraft. At present it has a very old artificial horizon and a card type DG and basically no avionics. It's open to a clean slate approach to the panel.

- As discussed below, I like steam gauges whether they are physical or virtual as I like scanning for needle position - there still isn't a better way to take in the information quickly.

- It's also a $37,000 aircraft and I'm not inclined to put more than about $10K in the panel and radios combined, since I'd never get anywhere near the amount over $45K total back out of the plane when I sell it, regardless of what's in the panel.

-----

Issues common to both:

- I am largely a steam gauge guy. I greatly prefer the ability to scan the apanel for needle positions rather than read tiny numbers off a colored display. There are downsides to colored displays particularly for pilots of a certain age who use reading glasses, while needle position is easy to see and easy to see in low light, even without reading glasses.

- Low light output and preservation of night vision is also important. I'm also an amature astronomer and it gives me a different take on the red versus green light. Yes, red light has less effect on night vision - in theory. However, in practice we see fine detail much better with green light and in order to see that same level of detail with red light, we need a lot more of it, which more than offsets any benefit to red light. In other words the low intensity green light needed to see detail on a chart or display is less damaging to night vision than the much higher intensity red light needed to see the same level of detail. You need to design your display accordingly as I want minimum impact on my ability to see outside the cockpit at night.

- User interface is also important. I have a friend of mine who is a doctor and not technically challenged in any way who pulled the Dynon system out of hos Carbon Cub, and installed a Garmin. The Garmin interface was better and let him navigate to where he wanted to be in the system much more easily than with the Dynon.

 

[Rick Ludtke]

Rick,

Just completed the survey. I think like a lot of the responses, whether it is a Citabria, Decathlon or Scout they are Day VFR Fun Platforms imo. You can't get any more basic than the Scout and for a lot us that's what we are looking for. For me a digital Engine Monitoring System would be a nice and beneficial feature.

The stuff you produce for the Experimental Market is constantly improving - Hat's Off to Dynon!

I'm in partnership on an RV8. The former Owner in 2015 installed a Dynon 180 - Garmin 795 Nav Display - tethered to an Autopilot. Cruising at 8500' - 9500' VFR at 170 kts true. I can see the benefits of having an autopilot. In the Scout at 100 Kts on a good day @ 2500', not so much. Different mission.

Comment on the Dynon 180 - it's not bright enough in bright daylight. I believe you corrected that with the subsequent models. When on approach I scan the six pack airspeed indicator because of the dimness of the PFD speed tape.

With regards to the D10a. If it had an Engine Monitor System, something I really like about D180. It would be something I would consider for the Scout.

Best Regards, David.

Hi David,

The 1st generation Dynon products are getting very long in the tooth, and the technology is very different from our later products. Therefore, they can't and won't be receiving any new features or functions. The EFIS-D10A was intended to work in conjunction with the EMS-D10, which provided stand-alone engine monitoring on a separate display unit. Your FlightDek-D180 simply married those two into a common box. It sounds as if the screens brightness intensity is no longer what it was originally. You could contact Technical Support (https://www.dynonavionics.com/contact.php) to have it repaired.

SkyView HDX is the only product we have today that is certified to replace all of the existing flight information, navigation, and engine gauges. The EAA did certify the EFIS-D10A to replace the attitude indicator, but that STC will not allow the -D10A to replace any other instruments. It should be noted that the EFIS-D10A is used as the Standby display for the SkyView HDX STC.

The SkyView HDX Display comes in two different screen sizes, a 10" diagonal, and a 7" diagonal. These are the only display unit options you have for displaying flight, navigation, and engine information, although you can network up to three display units total of either size in one panel, if desired. Each display can be configured to show the desired information independently from the other displays. Each type of information, Flight, Nav, and Engine can be shown in 100% screen layout or 50% screen layout. The engine display can also be shown in the bottom bar layout as well.

Please take a look at the SkyView HDX system. Unlike the EFIS-D10A, this would provide you with Flight information, Navigation information and flight planning, Engine information, fuel computer, geo-synchronized Charts (if desired), integrated COM radio (if desired), integrated Transponder (if desired), Traffic and weather (if desired), and much much more. By the way, Dynon's certified component prices are identical to the experimental component prices, as they are the same products.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[Rick Ludtke]

The Champs and Citabrias and Decathlon letters *mostly* make sense (there are a few exceptions) if you view them as a progression.

Let's start with the 7AC and the two letter series Champs:

Model 7AC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved October 18, 1945
Continental A-65-8 (see item 115 for Lycoming O-235-C)

The 7BCM and CCM used the next letters in the alphabet and added an "M" for military:

Model 7BCM (Army L-16A), 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved September 16, 1947
It was the same as 7AC except for power plant installation using a Continental C-85-8, -8F, -8J or -8FJ

Model 7CCM (Army L-16B), 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved July 12, 1948
It was the same as 7BCM except for a narrow range of power plants installed (a Continental C90-8F or C90-8FJ), increased fin area, auxiliary fuel wing tank and fuselage member changed.

Model 7DC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved July 12, 1948
It was the same as 7CCM except for the range of power plants used (a Continental C-85-8, -8F, -8J, or -8FJ

Model 7EC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved November 30, 1949
It was the same as the 7DC except for a Continental C90-12F or C90-12FJ engine.

Model 7FC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved March 27, 1957.
This was the same as the 7EC except for the tricycle gear.

Model 7GC, 2 PCL-SM (Normal Category), Approved October 3, 1958
The Model 7GC is generally similar to 7EC except for a modified fuselage structure as required for increase in gross weight and installation of a Lycoming O-290-D2B. This is also (I think) where the square wing tips came in.

Model 7HC, 3 PCL-SM (Normal Category), Approved August 6, 1959
The Model 7HC is generally similar to the 7GC except for a modified fuselage structure as required for additional rear seat capacity, tricycle type gear and control wheel type system in front seat.

Model 7JC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved February 24, 1960
The Model 7JC is generally similar to the 7EC except for a modified fuselage structure as required for installation of tricycle gear with single gear aft.

Now we get to the point where they started adding a third letter:

Jumping way ahead here just to keep the Champs in one group, we have the 1971 model "cheap Champ" with a 60 hp Franklin engine.
Model 7ACA, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved April 30, 1971. Franklin 2A-120A or 2A-120B
In this case, they added an "A " after "7AC" rather than calling it a "7LC", probably because of the similar horsepower to the 7AC and the intent to market it as a new version of the 7AC.

Jumping back to 1959:

Model 7GCA, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved November 17, 1959
The Model 7GCA is generally similar to the 7GC except for modifications as required for installation of a Lycoming O-320-A2B engine. In this case the "A" suffix to the "GC" appears to have referred to aerobatic capability.

Model 7GCB, 2 PCL-SM (Normal Category), Approved April 28, 1960
The Model 7GCB is generally similar to the 7GCA except for modified wing and fuselage structure as required for addition of wing flaps, increased wing area and increased rear seat weight limit. In this case the "B" indicated the flapped "B" wing to differentiate it from the 7GCA and it's non flapped "A" wing.

Model 7KC, 2 PCLM (Normal Category), Approved January 10, 1961
The Model 7KC is generally similar to the 7GCA except for modifications as required for reduced wing area, minor fairing and cabin interior changes, and controls in the front seat only. The oddity here is that it reverts to the next letter in the Champ alphabet series, rather than becoming the "7GCC".

Now we see the first of the 4 letter series:

Model 7GCBA, 2 PCLM (Restricted Agricultural Category Only), Approved February 2, 1962
This is a 7GCB modified for crop dusting, and in this case the 4the letter is an "A" for agricultural.

Model 7ECA, 2 PCL-SM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved August 5, 1964
The Model 7ECA is the first of the Citabria aircraft and is it was generally similar to the 7GC except for modifications required for installation of the O-200 A Continental (and later the O-235-C and C1) engine and the Citabria package which included a modified vertical tail assembly, windshield contour, rear seat windows and wide track main gear.
It's not real clear to me why this was called the "ECA" rather than the 7GCAA, with the 4th letter "A" denoting the Citabria package on the non flapped 7GCA aircraft. I'm guessing they wanted to link it back to the 7EC due to the 100 hp O-200 engine and its similarity to the C-90 powered 7EC.

Model 7GCAA, 2 PCLM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved July 30, 1965
The Model 7GCAA is generally similar to the 7ECA except for the installation of the Model 7GCB engine mount and engine, revised cowling and minor equipment and trim changes and using a Lycoming O-320-A2B, O-320-C2B, or O-320-A2D engine. Here the 4th letter "A" stands for the Citabria "A" package that applied to the 150 hp Citabrias. In other words it was the non flap winged, 150 hp, aerobatic, 7GCA with the Citabria "A" package suffix.

Model 7GCBC, 2 PCL-SM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved December 3, 1965
The Model 7GCBC is generally similar to the 7GCAA except for the installation of the Model 7GCB wings, wing struts, and flap system. In other words it's a 7GCAA with flaps. In this case the 4th letter "C" denotes the Citabria "C" package.

Model 7KCAB, 2 PCLM (Normal or Acrobatic Category), Approved December 21, 1966
The Model 7KCAB is generally similar to the 7GCAA except for the installation of fuel injected engine, revised fuel system and modified oil system for limited inverted operation and has a Lycoming IO-320-E2A or IO-320-E2B, or later on an AEIO-320-E2B engine. This is the odd one in the bunch as it's a 7GCAA with inverted fuel and oil, and was marketed as the CItabria "B" package, so 7GCAB would have made perfect sense. But they called it the 7KCAB instead. K and G are not adjacent on the keyboard so it probably wasn't a typo. It also had nothing in common with the 7KC.

It's possible and even likely that Champion had planned to produce it with a shorter wing like the 7KC and named the design accordingly, but then put the 7GCAA wing on it instead but retained the "7KCAB” designator.

That makes sense when you consider that the original 8KCAB was similar to the 7KCAB, except for a shorter wing using a semi-symmetrical airfoil section and a beefed up fuselage structure. The 8 series aircraft are on a new type certificate certified under newer standards but the roots are solid 7 series.

Similarly the 8GCBC is a 7GCBC with longer span wings, beefier fuselage structure, a higher gross weight, and a 180 hp O-360.

Thank you BB for this in-depth description!

 

[Bob Turner]

Yeah, me too. I did not memorize it, but at least now know where to go to find out.

I am sure folks are happy that so few 100 kt airplanes are cetified IFR, but again it sure would be nice to be able to punch through the coastal clouds.

Glass cockpits have pluses and minuses. For me the big minus is that you are not looking out the window VFR, and if you are not careful and hit the wrong key/button/touch point IFR, you can become extremely busy and frustrated one mile from the FAF. Don't want that.

I flew the first generation EFIS - 737-300 and A-320 - and can tell you I loved it. But my rule - be set up - no more than six keystrokes below 10,000 feet, and if it starts to do something you are not 100% prepared for, disconnect now and ask questions later.

Now I am quite happy with steam gauges and a Garmin hand held. I practice ILS approaches with the air off (I use a venturi) and am fairly good at it - the hand helds have a horizontal flight director.

But next time the gyro instruments crap out I may be looking at 3 1/8" digital. An HSI would be nice, but the handheld has one now.

 

[Big Ed]

I know it is scope creep on this discussion, and probably impossible from an FAA standpoint, but .....

If Dynon were to create a viable path to IFR certification for the Citabria and Decathlon, they would sell a truckload of systems.

 

[Bob Turner]

Not sure that is Dynon's forte - I think it would be difficult, but probably an STC would do it. Remember, it would cost a lot, so the paperwork would be a grand.
ACA could easily do it - and I think they would get their money back. But they might tie it in to metal spar wings or something, like they did on the 160.

 

[Explorer]

Hi David,

The 1st generation Dynon products are getting very long in the tooth, and the technology is very different from our later products. Therefore, they can't and won't be receiving any new features or functions. The EFIS-D10A was intended to work in conjunction with the EMS-D10, which provided stand-alone engine monitoring on a separate display unit. Your FlightDek-D180 simply married those two into a common box. It sounds as if the screens brightness intensity is no longer what it was originally. You could contact Technical Support (https://www.dynonavionics.com/contact.php) to have it repaired.

SkyView HDX is the only product we have today that is certified to replace all of the existing flight information, navigation, and engine gauges. The EAA did certify the EFIS-D10A to replace the attitude indicator, but that STC will not allow the -D10A to replace any other instruments. It should be noted that the EFIS-D10A is used as the Standby display for the SkyView HDX STC.

The SkyView HDX Display comes in two different screen sizes, a 10" diagonal, and a 7" diagonal. These are the only display unit options you have for displaying flight, navigation, and engine information, although you can network up to three display units total of either size in one panel, if desired. Each display can be configured to show the desired information independently from the other displays. Each type of information, Flight, Nav, and Engine can be shown in 100% screen layout or 50% screen layout. The engine display can also be shown in the bottom bar layout as well.

Please take a look at the SkyView HDX system. Unlike the EFIS-D10A, this would provide you with Flight information, Navigation information and flight planning, Engine information, fuel computer, geo-synchronized Charts (if desired), integrated COM radio (if desired), integrated Transponder (if desired), Traffic and weather (if desired), and much much more. By the way, Dynon's certified component prices are identical to the experimental component prices, as they are the same products.

Cheers,
Rick

Hi Rick,

Appreciate your reply and contributions to the discussion. The D180 went back to the Factory in Woodinville, WA - 2 Summers ago by the previous owner. I think maybe, it is what is. Sadly it is getting dated. Having said that, I do like your new offerings. Well done!

Perhaps something as straightforward as the D3 is a giant leap forward for a 1974 Scout

All the Best, David.

 

[volvo164]

Not sure that is Dynon's forte - I think it would be difficult, but probably an STC would do it. Remember, it would cost a lot, so the paperwork would be a grand.
ACA could easily do it - and I think they would get their money back. But they might tie it in to metal spar wings or something, like they did on the 160.

It's further frustrating that it's simply tied to the restriction in the flight manual. As I wrote earlier, Champion allowed IFR but then Bellanca onwards it was changed to VFR only. Wonder what prompted the change, and why is it so hard to reverse. I spoke with ACA - and they basically said that flight manuals are just about written in stone - tied back to original certifications, and hence neither the company nore a FISDO is able to deviate from it easily. I'm guessing Bellanca's rationale was liability - but whatever the reason - we seem to be now stuck, requiring an STC to go the other way.

 

[aftCG]

I spent some time on the Dynon web site last night and I have to again say thanks to Rick for showing up here and subjecting himself to mild abuse. I'm going to be spending some hard earned aviation dollars with Dynon as a result.

Here's where I started:
1) No use for an autopilot
2) My plane went 54 years without an attitude indicator which is proof enough that they're not very important for VFR
3) I couldn't understand why Dynon's low cost VFR option dispensed with moving map.

The first item is still true for me, but it's personal preference and there's no down side to a company offering that capability.
Second item, I installed (er, snapped in) a Dynon D3 a year or so ago to benefit primary students. It's tough to discuss bank angle and pitch attitude in terms of degrees when they're already task saturated.
Third, well I still don't understand that one. Busting Bravo is way more of a concern to me than information provided by an EFIS when flying VFR.

Here's where I'm at today:
As some here are aware, I am building an experimental plane (a Kitfox) and need a panel. Until recently I've thought most screen shots showed way too much clutter for my taste. It wasn't until one of Rick's comments above that I understood that the display is very user customizable. I need engine information, I need moving map, and I don't hate the idea of COM and TXP being remote.

So last night I dug through the manual for the Dynon and sure enough, I could dispense with the EFIS entirely if I wanted to. I can go 100% moving map, 100% EIS, split screen 50/50, etc. What I realized is that display manufacturers make ad copy with a lot of features turned on to impress consumers with the capability and that is what makes it look so cluttered. I can even see my way to installing two tubes on my side by side panel and swapping displays so flying from either seat is a no brainer. For IFR, split EFIS and EIS on one tube and moving map on the other.

And finally, I'm surprised that Rick didn't make a bigger point of this (one of my former students did): Software and database updates are free with Dynon and not so much with brand G. In fact a few years of not paying for IFR database updates will pay for my second display. Add to that brand G's history of abandoning hardware it is making this choice very easy.

 

[Bob Turner]

That last paragraph is great info - yeah, when those wonderful 295/496 Garmins break, it is trashcan city. Planned obsolescence? I guess fortunately they don't break often.