Dynon Certified Marketing Survey

Explorer

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Pacific NW
Stop it right now aft CG - LOL...

Anyone want to buy a nice D180 & Garmin 795? - LOL...

Free updates ensures your always up to date.
 

Rick Ludtke

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Messages
15
Location
Whidbey Island, WA
So last night I dug through the manual for the Dynon and sure enough, I could dispense with the EFIS entirely if I wanted to. I can go 100% moving map, 100% EIS, split screen 50/50, etc. What I realized is that display manufacturers make ad copy with a lot of features turned on to impress consumers with the capability and that is what makes it look so cluttered. I can even see my way to installing two tubes on my side by side panel and swapping displays so flying from either seat is a no brainer. For IFR, split EFIS and EIS on one tube and moving map on the other.

And finally, I'm surprised that Rick didn't make a bigger point of this (one of my former students did): Software and database updates are free with Dynon and not so much with brand G. In fact a few years of not paying for IFR database updates will pay for my second display. Add to that brand G's history of abandoning hardware it is making this choice very easy.
Great points Aft,

Its true, Dynon rolls out new functionality, and makes improvements to existing functionality in software updates periodically, and for US operators, we provide updates to the US Airport and Obstacle databases every 28 days. All of this is free to download from our websites.

Updating software is very simple on Dynon SkyView products, save a file from the website directly to a USB drive, and carry it to the airplane. Plug the USB into a port mounted to your panel, or use the provided connector cord you can stow behind the panel, or plug it directly into the back of the display unit. Enter the setup menu, and navigate to the load files section, and select the file from the list of files on your USB file, and touch the Load Files button.

Due to FAA regulation not every form of software update may be accomplished by the owner/operator, some updates require a certified mechanic. Our certified website (https://www.dynoncertified.com/) identifies what kinds of updates the owner/operator may and may not perform.

I decided to generate some screen shots using my HDX display operating in Demo mode to show you more detail:
This is what the 100% PFD looks like: 1602798987919.png This is the alternative "6 pack" mode: 1602799075939.png
Here is a description of the flight information layout of the traditional PFD in case you may not be familiar: 1602799130833.png. Note that the Flight Director is turned on in this view.
This image points out all of the touchable regions to control bugs or invoke control menus: 1602799275043.png.
This is the Navigation Map with the Flight Plan menu open: 1602799325331.png It shows an active course to an airport.
The Nav Database can provide airport information, such as this: 1602799429325.png.
Subscriptions to third party charts allows charts to be overlaid on the Map, like the VFR Sectional shown here: 1602799504596.png.

Typical Single Engine Monitoring System display showing the the Bottom Band, and the 50% Page turned on: 1602799547498.png. The user can choose from a broad menu the forms and sizes of indicators, and they can be arrange to the user's preference during initial setup.

An example of traffic displayed on the PFD and Map: 1602799635718.png 1602799659374.png.
And an example of weather being depicted on the map: 1602799693534.png.
Menus, such as this one, are used to control the information that you choose to monitor: 1602799944284.png.

Cheers,
Rick
 
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Rick Ludtke

Member
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Messages
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Location
Whidbey Island, WA
Regarding the IFR limitation... While I am unsure why the manufacture placed this limitation on some of the models, this limitation is no different that other limitations imposed on the airframe, such as maximum gross weight. We all know how that limit is often treated.

Not many part 23 airplanes have such a limitation. The Extra aerobatic airplane's have such a limitation, yet many leave the factory equipped with a full suite of high-end IFR related equipment installed.

§91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements informs us on the minimum required equipment to operate any aircraft in VFR day, VFR night, and IFR operations. In theory, any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of this regulation may be used to participate in the IFR system.

I'll leave it to you to draw your own operational conclusions... ;)

Cheers,
Rick
 
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Bob Turner

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Apr 4, 2018
Messages
1,089
Well, flying overweight is not detectable unless something bad happens. Chances are that ATC would not question a BL-8 slash Romeo, but there you would be, on record, violating your approved operations. Shoot an approach if you have an emergency - but otherwise there is some risk of a violation, especially now that certain types of scrutiny are automatically done by computer.
 

volvo164

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
22
I think the FAR referenced is correct - unless a plane is limited from the manufacturer to doing so. That's the issue - if your flight manual states nothing about VFR / IFR in limitations, than you can fly that aircraft provided FAR minimum instruments are met (including navigation instruments for en-route and approach). The issue is that manufacturers can limit the use of their product - hence the whole point of limitations. Some make sense - like the Diamond DA20 series (airframes not capable to dissipate lightning). In our case - we just don't know why Bellanca introduced the VFR only limitation, that then stuck.
 

Big Ed

N50247 - '79 Super D
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
Messages
237
Location
Tampa, FL
Could be to save money and time during the type certification process. That was the rationale provided for the Cirrus being placarded against spins, for example. I heard they saved several years of flight testing and review by specifying the only approved spin recovery method is "pull red handle".

I don't know much about the TC process, but I assume that to certify a new aircraft design for IFR operation, the manufacturer would have to equip a test aircraft, test it thoroughly in IMC operations, and get FAA approval of the results. In the early 70s the market was flooded with IFR capable 4 place aircraft from Cessna, Piper, and others. Maybe Bellanca concluded there just wasn't a business case for the added time and expense.

In that case the easiest work around is to simply write into the manual that you can't use this AC for IFR. Maybe Champion did not have to do that because most of their planes were type certified before IFR existed.

It could be there is some inherent design limitation or performance parameter that poses an obstacle to IFR certification. However, I have seen an actual STC that a owner obtained in the late 90s to make his Decathlon IFR legal, so it is (or was) theoretically possible at one point in history.
 

Bob Turner

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Apr 4, 2018
Messages
1,089
Ed has the answer.

An STC is, by definition, usable on all aircraft of the same type. If someone holds such an STC, I would buy a copy today!

It was more likely a field approval, and to do that you would need a very pliable ASI. They tell me that this sort of dramatic change to the type certificate is possible, but it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars if engineering studies are involved.
 

Rick Ludtke

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Messages
15
Location
Whidbey Island, WA
Could be to save money and time during the type certification process. That was the rationale provided for the Cirrus being placarded against spins, for example. I heard they saved several years of flight testing and review by specifying the only approved spin recovery method is "pull red handle".

I don't know much about the TC process, but I assume that to certify a new aircraft design for IFR operation, the manufacturer would have to equip a test aircraft, test it thoroughly in IMC operations, and get FAA approval of the results. In the early 70s the market was flooded with IFR capable 4 place aircraft from Cessna, Piper, and others. Maybe Bellanca concluded there just wasn't a business case for the added time and expense.

In that case the easiest work around is to simply write into the manual that you can't use this AC for IFR. Maybe Champion did not have to do that because most of their planes were type certified before IFR existed.

It could be there is some inherent design limitation or performance parameter that poses an obstacle to IFR certification. However, I have seen an actual STC that a owner obtained in the late 90s to make his Decathlon IFR legal, so it is (or was) theoretically possible at one point in history.
Here is a hint...
1602867175717.png

The Type Certificate Data Sheet indicates the introduction of the Airplane Flight Manual in March 1979. I suspect the FAA requirements behind the need for an AFM may also have required the manufacture to demonstrate compliant operations in all of the different flight regimes, and the manufacturer simply chose not too, perhaps because of the need to equip a demonstrator airplane, and a belief that the market wasn't interested, which may well had been true at the time. The STC you mention probably just accomplished the demonstration for the FAA.

In my estimate, this falls into the realm of what the FAA now allows for field approvals assuming my above conjecture is indeed true, as all they would need to do is equip the airplane and demonstrate it in the IFR environment. This would be pretty straight forward and "simple" certification for one airplane. Procedurally of course there is the need to put the airplane in experimental category, provide the required certification deliverables including flight test reports, etc etc.
 
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volvo164

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
22
Here is a hint...
View attachment 2759

The Type Certificate Data Sheet indicates the introduction of the Airplane Flight Manual in March 1979. I suspect the FAA requirements behind the need for an AFM may also have required the manufacture to demonstrate compliant operations in all of the different flight regimes, and the manufacturer simply chose not too, perhaps because of the need to equip a demonstrator airplane, and a belief that the market wasn't interested, which may well had been true at the time. The STC you mention probably just accomplished the demonstration for the FAA.

In my estimate, this falls into the realm of what the FAA now allows for field approvals assuming my above conjecture is indeed true, as all they would need to do is equip the airplane and demonstrate it in the IFR environment. This would be pretty straight forward and "simple" certification for one airplane. Procedurally of course there is the need to put the airplane in experimental category, provide the required certification deliverables including flight test reports, etc etc.
The pilot's operating manual for the '75 - '77 model years already contains the VFR only limitation: https://www.aerodynamicaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/CitabriaPOH.pdf
Can't find the older Champion manual online, which states VFR, IFR with optional equipment ... Not sure about earlier Bellanca manuals pre '75
 

Rick Ludtke

Member
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Sep 30, 2020
Messages
15
Location
Whidbey Island, WA
Here is the actual STC. If you look at the attached PDF, it states that the STC is limited to that specific SN and tail number only.


So anybody know Ken Bowersox?
The FAA doesn't really like to do field approvals anymore, so the one time STC appears the avenue they forced him to take. This caused the STC owner to jump through more process hoops. It also documented the airplanes configuration, so what ever equipment the STC owner installed for IFR ops, is what became required by the STC.
This path is an option for anyone. I strongly suspect, based upon my experience as Dynon's certification engineer up until recently, that the technical elements of the STC consists of an operation demonstration.
Rick
 

Explorer

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Joined
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Messages
75
Location
Pacific NW
Rick,

Very Complimentary đź‘Ť


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Avionics: Dynon HDX upgrade
AVIONICS: DYNON HDX UPGRADE
PLUG AND PLAY, MOSTLY
July 1, 2020By Dave Hirschman
In the language of avionics, terms like “plug and play” or “drop-in replacement” can be bitterly ironic. The reality of installing new glass displays is seldom as simple as it sounds. There’s almost always rewiring, fitting, and fabrication to be done—and those skilled tasks aren’t quick or easy.
P&E July 2020

Synthetic vision on the Dynon HDX matches the view out the windshield on final approach. The right side of the HDX screen is a moving map with terrain, weather, and traffic. An engine monitor is shown across the bottom. The smaller screen on the right side of the cockpit is a GRT Mini, which can serve as a moving map or a backup, all-in-one attitude instrument.
Photography by Chris Rose
Dynon Avionics began in 2000, introduced SkyView in 2009, and HDX in 2016.
So, when Dynon Avionics claimed replacing my dated-but-functional SkyView primary flight display with a newer, better HDX version was a straightforward matter, I was deeply skeptical. As was Carlo Cilliers, AOPA’s resident aviation mechanic with inspection authorization, who has installed two Dynon SkyViews in his own airplane.
“Remember our last plug-and-play instrument panel required completely rewiring the entire airplane,” he said. “Are you sure you want to open that can of worms?”
Well, I really didn’t have a choice.
The 7-inch Dynon SkyView screen in my Van’s RV–4 is simply too cluttered to show flight instruments with synthetic vision, an engine monitor, and moving map at the same time. Even though the replacement HDX is the same physical size, its sharper screen resolution and layout (borrowed from experimental subsidiary Advanced Flight Systems) provides a larger, clearer picture.
He flipped on the airplane’s master and avionics switches, and the HDX came to life. Even with a protective film over the screen, it was a noticeable improvement.The HDX retails for $3,190 and I expected to recoup nearly half that cost by selling my old SkyView online. (Dynon doesn’t offer an HDX trade-in program.)
With the new HDX wrapped up in a box, I met Cilliers at the hangar. We took out the SkyView in about 10 minutes—and all it took was removing four screws and disconnecting a single 37-pin, D-sub connector.
Then Cilliers unboxed the HDX and clicked it into place. Two of the four screw holes lined up, and two didn’t. Those that didn’t required a couple of new nut plates. Then Cilliers reconnected the electrical connector on the back of the unit by feel.
He flipped on the airplane’s master and avionics switches, and the HDX came to life. Even with a protective film over the screen, it was a noticeable improvement.
We transferred the previous SkyView settings to the HDX via a thumb drive and installed new firmware and navigation data. But, for some reason, the new unit wasn’t communicating with the Dynon transponder, autopilot, GPS, or ADS-B system. Cilliers did some clever detective work to unlock the HDX serial ports—and that got all the components talking again.
Then it was time to recalibrate the magnetometer (for heading information) and the fuel tanks—which meant draining them completely and then refilling them, two gallons at a time. The entire process from removal to fully functional replacement took about four hours, and that’s blazing speed for an avionics upgrade.
Dynon scored a breakthrough four years ago when it became the first avionics firm to win FAA approval for installing non-TSO primary instruments in standard category aircraft. That initial approval for a relatively simple, all-in-one attitude instrument—the D10A—has been followed with similar approvals for much of Dynon’s product line. Dynon even started a separate division for standard category aircraft products that it calls Dynon Certified. The HDX system is its flagship, and it’s been FAA approved for installation in about 600 piston airplane models.
“Remember our last plug-and-play instrument panel required completely rewiring the entire airplane,” he said. “Are you sure you want to open that can of worms?”Dynon also builds an integrated digital autopilot that, so far, only has been approved for a few standard category aircraft. When Dynon gets the FAA’s blessing to offer fully integrated avionics suites—including autopilots—for certified aircraft, it’s sure to be an even more formidable competitor to industry leader Garmin than it is now.
Garmin has an unmatched lineup of both certified and non-TSO products, industry-leading engineering depth, and an almost supernatural ability to get FAA approval for new avionics across a broad spectrum of aircraft models. Garmin’s G3X PFD/MFD—which was originally made for experimental aircraft and is now approved for hundreds of FAA-certified models—is an exquisite piece of technology that shares information seamlessly with the G5 standby instrument, Garmin GPS systems, and radios—and wireless devices via FlightStream. The G3X and its supporting cast are being widely adopted for both new aircraft and legacy panel upgrades.
Dynon has long been a leader in experimental and light sport aircraft, and its products have a well-deserved reputation for being economical, and easy and enjoyable to use. Dynon also provides navigation and obstacle database updates to customers free of charge, a contrast to competing firms that charge subscription fees that, over time, can significantly increase the cost of their products.
For Dynon, however, every installation in an FAA-certified airplane brings a new customer. And if Dynon’s history in light sport and experimental aviation is any indication, it will be a scrappy competitor with staying power in the certified market.
Email dave.hirschman@aopa.org
Dave HirschmanDave Hirschman
AOPA Pilot Editor at Large
AOPA Pilot Editor at Large Dave Hirschman joined AOPA in 2008. He has an airline transport pilot certificate and instrument and multiengine flight instructor certificates. Dave flies vintage, historical, and Experimental airplanes and specializes in tailwheel and aerobatic instruction.
GO TO DAVE HIRSCHMAN'S PROFILE
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