8KCAB IFR Certification

Glad to see more info bring assembled regarding this thread. I'm willing to guess that the 8KCAB isn't any less worthy of IFR certification and if one really wants to do it then it's just a matter of time and money to make it happen. The weight added by the extra stuff to qualify will further erode the utility of the plane since it is already useful load challenged but to each his own. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

Bart
 
Strange. A C-150 can be flown IFR with basic instruments, com, and whatever nav is appropriate - like a simple VOR. Not at all sure a heated pitot is required. Maybe it is CAR 4a.
The Decathlon is a really good instrument platform. ILS at 90 mph is as stable as any.
 
Big Ed said:
It is unclear from rhis post whether he got the ACA action instead of FAA approval, or in addition to FAA approval. Also unclear as to how or why the 8KCAB would differ.
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I replied to Mark to clarify - it seems the quote he cut / pasted is perhaps someone else's. I missed his subsequent comment that you cut/pasted Ed - and indeed it does look Mark simply took his plane to ACA. Once the AFM is changed I don't see why he would have needed to go to an ACO. Can you clarify why you think this wouldn't work for the 8KCAB? As I mentioned before, there are no restrictions for VFR/IFR in the 8KCAB TCDS, so it's only the AFM that restricts that type as well.
 
Bob Turner said:
Strange. A C-150 can be flown IFR with basic instruments, com, and whatever nav is appropriate - like a simple VOR. Not at all sure a heated pitot is required. Maybe it is CAR 4a.
The Decathlon is a really good instrument platform. ILS at 90 mph is as stable as any.
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I found no FAR requirement for a heated pitot tube. And indeed these planes are surprisingly stable, easy to trim to fly hands off. A lot easier to fly IFR than the A36 I also fly, that's for sure.
 
volvo164 said:
I replied to Mark to clarify - it seems the quote he cut / pasted is perhaps someone else's. I missed his subsequent comment that you cut/pasted Ed - and indeed it does look Mark simply took his plane to ACA. Once the AFM is changed I don't see why he would have needed to go to an ACO. Can you clarify why you think this wouldn't work for the 8KCAB? As I mentioned before, there are no restrictions for VFR/IFR in the 8KCAB TCDS, so it's only the AFM that restricts that type as well.
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I think that the plane that went to ACA was brought there to have required equipment installed in order to comply with the IFR requirements that were already established for the model. The point was, if it's legal you just have to make the configuration comply with what's necessary. If it isn't, then there's the FAA/ACO route.

I may be wrong but that's how I took it.
 
Big Ed said:
The quote he pasted is from his phone call to Ken Bowersox, the astronaut.

Because ACA does not have an FAA-approved AFM for the 8KCAB that includes IFR in conditions of flight.
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Oh right - that explains it - got confused with the story in the thread.

So in terms of the AFM - that is interesting. That would mean that ACA does have an AFM for the 7 series that allows IFR. The Champion era flight manuals did state IFR with optional equipment. So perhaps this is what ACA is basing their change of the AFM on. What's strange is that I called Dale when I was shopping for a 7ECA, and was planning to by a 2000 or so vintage - just 2 years ago - at that time Dale said there was no way to change the AFM (other than getting lucky with a local FSDO on a field approval). Not sure when Mark got his plane upgraded.
So for the 8 series, the TCDS specified right from the beginning ('71 or so) that the flight manual is required and all restrictions in the flight manual apply. Since that aircraft series never had a flight manual allowing IFR flight, this theory is plausible ...
 
What about the certification basis? If the 7ECA is on the same TC as the 7AC, then I would think it can go IFR legally with minimal equipment. The Dec is a part 23 aircraft, no? That is what makes this difficult.
I can legally equip my J3 and file IFR without further ado . . .
 
I can't really tell at a glance, but at least some parts of all Champs through the 7GCAA and 7KCAB are CAR 4a aircraft. Maybe the part 23 notes pertain to the AFM?






1) Part 4(a) of the Civil Air Regulations effective as amended to April 7, 1950,

except paragraph 4a.532(m) (for all models except 7GCBA).

2) Paragraphs 23.25 and 23.959 of the Federal Aviation Regulations dated February 1, 1965 for Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, and 7KCAB.

3) Part 8.10(b) of the Civil Air Regulations effective October 11, 1950 (Model 7GCBA); and FAR 36, appendix G for the Models 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-K2C engine), 7GCAA, 7GCBC (S/N 1198-80 and up), and 7KCAB.

4) In addition to the Part 4a certification basis contained in first paragraph above, the model 7EC certification basis for serial numbers 1000-2006 & up includes the additional regulations below:
FAR 23.961; 23.971; 23.1351 as amended by Amendment 23-6. FAR 23.21; 23.23; 23.25; 23.29; 23.45; 23.49; 23.51; 23.53; 23.63; 23.65; 23.6
 
It's really a bit puzzling that ACA hasn't broken the code. An IFR-legal 8KCAB would sell even more than they do now, not to mention opening up a new revenue stream from retrofits.
 
Big Ed said:
It's really a bit puzzling that ACA hasn't broken the code. An IFR-legal 8KCAB would sell even more than they do now, not to mention opening up a new revenue stream from retrofits.
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It might have something to do with company liability.
ACA already has to contend with the liability incurred fielding an aerobatic aircraft line used by everyone from Greg Koontz down to a neophyte who does the technicolor yawn at anything over 30°...
Certifying these same aerobatic planes to venture into IFR conditions might just be a liability bridge to far...
Chris
 
Maybe. Why, then, do most manufacturers make their airplanes capable? They, too, could cut down liability (and sell fewer airplanes).
 
Bob Turner said:
Maybe. Why, then, do most manufacturers make their airplanes capable? They, too, could cut down liability (and sell fewer airplanes).
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Agreed. Also, the 7GCBC and 8GCBC are available as IFR with limited aerobatic certification.

I think it probably has to do with the certification basis. All of the 7 series are type certified under CAR Part 4(a), while the 8 series are type certified under FAR Part 23. I have read before that Bellanca made a decision to include IFR in approved conditions of flight for the 8GCBC but not the 8KCAB, because the Decathlon was intended as an aerobatic trainer and they did not think there would be demand for an IFR-capable version. Presumably the process of going back and adding IFR approval is more complex under FAR than it was under the CAR, so getting an amended AFM for the 8KCAB is more expensive than it was for the 7GCAA.

Interestingly, the 7 series type certificate is amended to include FAR 23.25, which addresses aircraft systems and includes electrical, lighting, icing, and lightning protection for IFR aircraft.
 
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Big Ed said:
Interestingly, the 7 series type certificate is amended to include FAR 23.25, which addresses aircraft systems and includes electrical, lighting, icing, and lightning protection for IFR aircraft.
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I found 23.25 to be weight limits - 23.2500 and so on - is equipment including lighting, icing
 
QUESTION:
Am I correct in gathering from previous posts that the 7 SERIES CITABRIAS CAN BE IFR CERTIFIED WHEN PROPERLY EQUIPPED?
 
PeterR said:
QUESTION:
Am I correct in gathering from previous posts that the 7 SERIES CITABRIAS CAN BE IFR CERTIFIED WHEN PROPERLY EQUIPPED?
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It's a grey area at best. My assessment:
- Pre 1971 Champion 7 Series can be IFR, since there are no placards against it in the TCDS, and the POH states "VFR only, IFR with optional equipment"
- After Bellanca took over manufacturing, the POH was changed to state "VFR only" in the operating limitations
- 79 onwards, this became the flight manual, keeping the "VFR only" restriction
- The factory is able to supply IFR 7GCBC aircraft - but hasn't provided a clear way for previous aircraft (with AFM restricting it to VFR only) to be converted
- I couldn't find anything, and haven't seen anyone find anything in the 7 series TCDS restricting it to VFR flight. This is a quote from AOPA:
"A POH is not required for a light aircraft (one that weighs under 6,000 pounds) manufactured before March 1, 1979. The FAA says an explanation of the airplane's operating limitations must be present in the airplane in some fashion, either on placards, markings, or in a manual. This requirement usually is satisfied by posting placards in the cockpit and baggage compartment.
Those of us who fly airplanes at least two decades old use a POH or similar unofficial but highly practical guide. The cover of mine says it's an "Owner's Manual." It has a section on operating limitations, but a disclaimer explains that if anything in the section "contradicts the FAA-approved markings and placards, it is to be disregarded."
- This is therefore a grey area - what the heck does that mean for pre '79 Bellanca planes? If there's no placard in the plane restricting to IFR - yet the non mandatory owner's manual says it's VFR only - then you could theoretically argue that the owner's manual contravenes the TCDS. By the way - has anyone ever see a restricted to VFR only placard in their Bellanca 7 series? Note that the TCDS states: "NOTE 12. Effective March 1, 1979, each Model 7ECA, 7GCAA, and 7GCBC airplane contains as FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual which is part of the required equipment. " - again - what does that mean about the supplies owner's manual pre '79?

- The 8 series is very different - right off the bat the TCDS states that all restrictions in the owner's manual apply
 
I think it depends on your certification basis. CAR 4a aircraft can be flown IFR with proper equipment. My J3 is legal IFR.
I don’t know about CAR 3 - but Part 23 airplanes must be certificated IFR, period. That means factory, STC, or Field Approval.
As far as a POH - regardless of the date, if your type certificate requires one you gotta have one. I have never seen a requirement for a POH, so the AOPA stuff is news to me - but the airplanes I am familiar with (SuperCubs and Decathlons) all require an AFM. AFMs are “different.”
 
PeterR said:
QUESTION:
Am I correct in gathering from previous posts that the 7 SERIES CITABRIAS CAN BE IFR CERTIFIED WHEN PROPERLY EQUIPPED?
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Mark Wittmayer got his 7GCAA certified by the factory. His description of the process is in post #18 on page 1 of this thread. So that is clearly doable.

In the same post, Ken Bowersox states that the 7GCBC can be IFR certified from the factory. The 8GCBC is also available certified. If an aircraft can be produced as IFR certified, then it can be brought up to factory standards and certified that way.

No evidence has been provided either way for the 7ECA.
 
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