8KCAB IFR Certification

I think that is incorrect. The POH in some cases is the same as the AFM, but the AFM has specifics for a single aircraft, says “FAA Approved” and is signed by an authorized official.
Again, check out our Type Certificate.
 
Per the FAA Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, page 9-2:

"The POH for most light aircraft built after 1975 is also designated as the FAA-approved flight manual."
In that case it seems that most of the Bellanca series is restricted. I still don't understand why
I think it depends on your certification basis. CAR 4a aircraft can be flown IFR with proper equipment. My J3 is legal IFR.
I don’t know about CAR 3 - but Part 23 airplanes must be certificated IFR, period. That means factory, STC, or Field Approval.
As far as a POH - regardless of the date, if your type certificate requires one you gotta have one. I have never seen a requirement for a POH, so the AOPA stuff is news to me - but the airplanes I am familiar with (SuperCubs and Decathlons) all require an AFM. AFMs are “different.”
That's just it, the 7 series doesn't require it. Hence my puzzlement over what Bellanca's manual's restriction means. Also - why did Bellanca make that change in the manual? Maybe liability.
 
Mark Wittmayer got his 7GCAA certified by the factory. His description of the process is in post #18 on page 1 of this thread. So that is clearly doable.

In the same post, Ken Bowersox states that the 7GCBC can be IFR certified from the factory. The 8GCBC is also available certified. If an aircraft can be produced as IFR certified, then it can be brought up to factory standards and certified that way.

No evidence has been provided either way for the 7ECA.
This route is doable. No one bothered with the 7ECA, despite it having the range and useful load for IFR (or at least that's what I keep telling myself in order to be content with 115hp). Also - other than the heated pitot tube, I don't think the factory does anything else physically on the 7GCBC to make it IFR. I.E. there are no changes for lightning protection. So all in all it's a shame ACA doesn't work to just amend the AFM to allow IFR with whatever specified equipment.
 
If I had to make a wild ass guess, I'd say the risk doesn't justify the reward for ACA. To open the door for airplanes they didn't make to be modified in the field and flown in a higher risk environment, there's nothing in it for them so why go there? And if there were more demand from new buyers for IFR certified planes to be made, they'd probably be making them.

I'm probably wrong but from where I'm at out here in the cheap seats, that's how it looks.
 
If I had to make a wild ass guess, I'd say the risk doesn't justify the reward for ACA. To open the door for airplanes they didn't make to be modified in the field and flown in a higher risk environment, there's nothing in it for them so why go there? And if there were more demand from new buyers for IFR certified planes to be made, they'd probably be making them.

I'm probably wrong but from where I'm at out here in the cheap seats, that's how it looks.

I suspect it is simply a business decision. Would probably cost a lot of money to reopen and complete the FAA certification process for the 8KCAB as IFR. If the demand is not there to justify the up front investment, they won't do it.
 
That's where I think you are wrong. The FAA process for issuing an STC is pretty complex and involves substantial fight testing to prove the aircraft performs as required. They aren't going to just accept a list of installed equipment and assume it will work as designed. Here are the FAA steps for an STC:
  • Applicant applies for STC
  • Familiarization and preliminary type certification board (TCB) meetings
  • FAA develops certification program plan
  • Establishment of certification basis by FAA
  • Applicant submits data for approval
  • FAA design evaluation
  • FAA and applicant hold specialists and interim type certification meetings, as required
  • FAA performs conformity inspections
  • Engineering compliance determinations
  • Pre-flight TCB Meeting
  • Applicant performs ground inspections, ground tests, and flight tests
  • FAA reviews manufacturer's flight test results and issues TIA
  • FAA performs conformity inspections, witnesses tests, performs official certification flight tests and flight standards evaluations
  • Functional and reliability testing
  • FAA approves flight manual supplement or supplemental flight manual and holds final TCB meeting
  • AEG completes continuing airworthiness determination
  • FAA issues STC

I'm expecting that ground/flight testing of N26BY, our 2004 8KCAB SuperD could start next week. I met with my three (count'em: 3) DERs Sunday night to refine the Compliance Checklist appendix in the Project Specific Certification Plan. Two flights will be conducted, one day and one night. The day flight will include several aerobatic figures to verify that pulling Gs won't scramble the avionics required by Parts 91 and 23 for IFR operation. A co-owner (insurance) safety pilot (who weighs 100 pounds...so not me) will accompany the Flight Test Pilot DER for the day flight. No acro during the night flight. Ground testing required to demonstrate compliance (mostly for "functionality") will be performed before both flights.

A ground/flight test report will be written by the Avionics and Flight Test Pilot DERs; the Flight Analyst DER will review those tests that require a Flight Analyst DER for approval.

The DERs were "fully delegated" to support the STC, which means that there is minimal direct participation by the members of the Certification Branch Project Team until the final (revised) version of Project Specific Certification Plan is submitted along with specified "deliverables" (mostly the test report and AFMS) for Cert Branch Project Team approval.

The Cert Branch Project Team didn't want to conduct any of the meetings listed above: that was one of the advantages of the "full delegation" to the DERs. A TIA was not required; the DERs will verify conformance with the "FAA approved" data the Part 145 repair station (which is a Garmin Dealer) used for the installation. The data comprised Garmin STCs: AMLs, Installation Manuals, forms 337, and installation checklists and logs. This was a big deal because I didn't have to hire a DAR for the TIA and the airplane category wasn't changed to "Experimental R&D" for the flight test.

The reason I searched this thread is that I must post several placards and was hoping there was an owner of an aerobatic and IFR Citabria 7KACB with a placard that looks something like this:

1776177873336.webp
It's a little strange to me that the DER wants this placard posted for flight test before the STC that approves IFR operations has been approved, but it's a Part 23 requirement.

I asked our Good Friend Chad at ACA for a placard like it, but so far, no joy. I will also post this placard:

MAGNETIC COMPASS MAY DEVIATE AS MUCH AS 30° WHEN PITOT HEAT IS ON.

BTW: it doesn't deviate that much when pitot heat is on, only about 5°, but that's the placard wording for the Scout with a heated pitot tube.

Does anyone with that rare acro/IFR Citabria have a part number for either of these placards? I'd rather have ACA placards than ones I create.
 
I think all Citabriae can be flown IFR legally. CAR4a. Placards were not such a big deal back then.

I just double-checked. There are bunches of part 23 caveats, but no placard that indicates any restriction. The nice thing about that is you need not worry, say, for a nice 7GCAA, about having pitot heat (for legality; you sure don't want it icing over on approach), and for instrumentation you just have to meet part 91. That is, gyros, sweep second hand clock, sensitive adjustable altimeter, and an appropriate nav receiver. c.f. 14 cfr 91.205C.
 
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An update and a question:

"My" Flight Test Pilot DER and I started flight test on Monday, 11 May. About 40 min into the flight the DER (in the front seat) noticed the battery was discharging. Long story shortened, we replaced the voltage regulator and alternator, just in time for me to fly to our annual aerobatic training came, from which I returned two days ago. There are a few squawks that need to be corrected before resuming flight testing. My guess (subject to the shop's diagnosis) is that the wiring harness leads to the two GI 275s need additional ties to protect them from G-loads during acro. I'm hoping that the shop can accomplish this between tomorrow and 5 June, after which I return to our contest site at Ephrata Municipal Airport, KEPH for our Apple Cup 2026 contest. I'm expecting to complete flight testing the week of 15 Jun, based on DER availability.

The Question: our wheel pants (I prefer to call them "fairings") sit in the hangar. I'm thinking of installing them before Apple Cup to reduce drag. I need all the smash available to enter two Sportsman "Known" figures. There are cracks in the fairings. I've never done any fiberglass work. Should I try to apply an interim fix to prevent further damage before sending them out for repair or have them replaced (painted) by ACA? Better ideas appreciated.
 
I’ll go out on a limb: I believe (but not enough to say “I expect”) the STC for IFR operation to be issued by the end of July. Here’s why:
The Flight Test Pilot DER, with the support of the Flight Analyst DER, submitted to the FAA West Certification Branch (to which I will hereafter refer as the Cert Branch) FAA Form 8110-3, “DETERMINATION OF COMPLIANCE WITH AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS” earlier this week. This 8110-3 refers to the ground and flight test report, which is the ground and flight test plan annotated with test results. It also refers to the submitted proposed Airplane Flight Manual Supplement. The project lead confirmed he’s received this 8110-3, the plan/report, and AFMS and is seeking an STC number (required not just to issue the STC but for the AFMS).

The Avionics DER plans to complete his 8110-3, which will include a System and Equipment Compliance Document, by the middle of next week (aka: 8 July). This Document is a re-formatted and annotated compliance checklist. He’d prepared it as an Appendix to the Project Specific Certification Plan (PSCP) but the Flight Analyst DER persuaded him to reformat it as the Compliance Document for submission with an 8110-3. He’s also revising the PSCP.

Expecting to receive the Avionics 8110-3, Compliance Document, and revised PSCP on 8 July, I plan to submit the PSCP and a Statement of Compliance comprising evidence for the Part 23 requirements assigned to Analysis or Design compliance methods no later than 10 July.
I coordinated the above with the Cert Branch project lead. He offered his guess that the STC could be approved a week after they start working on it. I’m carefully not saying “a week after they receive it” because they are scrambling to complete tasks in time to meet Airventure-imposed deadline.

If the STC is approved in time, I’ll fly N26BY to the IAC 67 “Apple Turnover” regional contest in Ephrata, WA, on 17 August on an IFR clearance (regardless of weather). Visibility degraded by wildfire smoke is the most likely “less than VFR” condition for which an IFR clearance would be needed. The 2025 Apple Turnover contest was shut down by wildfire smoke; many are expecting a bad summer because of a dry winter. Even if the weather is “severe clear” I’ll fly under IFR if the STC is approved. Alert the media.
On returning from Apple Turnover I intend to wrap my arms around all relevant posts and messages (with some help of AI and carbon-based sentient bipeds) to create a narrative of this adventure. My objective is to provide a road map for others interested in pursuing a “One Only” Decathlon IFR STC. I’m hoping that some of you may decide it would make sense to band together to pursue, under the leadership of someone with experience, a multiple STC. I’ll probably abstract the narrative into an article that I’ll submit to content-starved Sport Aerobatics. It might get a respectful reading in a late fall/early winter issue. Two of you are now flying Extras…but maybe you’d like them to be IFR capable.
I’ve spent almost $10K on DER fees and expect to slightly top that number by the end of July. If five Decathlon owners are interested in an STC, it might be more affordable to pool your resources into a quest of a multiple. A multiple STC owned by an LLC (or a company sponsor) could sell the STC, which might make pursuing the multiple STC even more affordable. I speak under correction (I’m talking to you, Jonathan).

The expense and effort of this project offends me. An FAA Part 145 repair station that is also a Garmin dealer installed avionics required for IFR flight into an airplane in compliance with an American Champion technical drawing that states installing those avionics into an airplane on the same Type Certificate make that airplane (the Scout) approved for IFR. Yet I had to spend 15 months and what may end up costing an additional $12K for DERs? This in microcosm is why General Aviation is dying. I could rant about this extensively (there’s a good YouTube video explaining why certification is stifling new affordable GA airplane innovation and development). The FAA is irrational about this. They want pilots to get IFR rated, but make upgrading VFR-only planes for IFR unaffordable.

I was asked yesterday if I would have done this if I’d known in May, 2025 how much it would cost and how long it would take. The immediate response to that question is: compared to what? One answer is that for the money I’ve spent I could have “up-engined” the SuperD to an AEIO-390 (I believe there is an STC for that), an upgrade that might have improved performance on every flight. OTOH, weather made flying to camp and our Apple Cup contest a challenge in May and June 2026. I’m looking forward to confidently flying in an IFR SuperD to contests that I wouldn’t attempt in October and even early November.

OK, I’m done for now.

Have an enjoyable and glorious Semiquincentennial celebration!
 
Well, tentative congratulations!

I would be happy to be part of an effort to get a global STC for the Decathlon, but as we have noted here, enthusiasm has not yet reached dull roar status.
Anything I would join would have to allow any brand or type of avionics and instruments. That is, when Garmin stops supporting the 750, I would want to be able to run a simple VOR receiver and remain certificated.
I am hearing that early Cirrus instrumentation will cease to be supported this year.
 
I’ll go out on a limb: I believe (but not enough to say “I expect”) the STC for IFR operation to be issued by the end of July. Here’s why:
The Flight Test Pilot DER, with the support of the Flight Analyst DER, submitted to the FAA West Certification Branch (to which I will hereafter refer as the Cert Branch) FAA Form 8110-3, “DETERMINATION OF COMPLIANCE WITH AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS” earlier this week. This 8110-3 refers to the ground and flight test report, which is the ground and flight test plan annotated with test results. It also refers to the submitted proposed Airplane Flight Manual Supplement. The project lead confirmed he’s received this 8110-3, the plan/report, and AFMS and is seeking an STC number (required not just to issue the STC but for the AFMS).

The Avionics DER plans to complete his 8110-3, which will include a System and Equipment Compliance Document, by the middle of next week (aka: 8 July). This Document is a re-formatted and annotated compliance checklist. He’d prepared it as an Appendix to the Project Specific Certification Plan (PSCP) but the Flight Analyst DER persuaded him to reformat it as the Compliance Document for submission with an 8110-3. He’s also revising the PSCP.

Expecting to receive the Avionics 8110-3, Compliance Document, and revised PSCP on 8 July, I plan to submit the PSCP and a Statement of Compliance comprising evidence for the Part 23 requirements assigned to Analysis or Design compliance methods no later than 10 July.
I coordinated the above with the Cert Branch project lead. He offered his guess that the STC could be approved a week after they start working on it. I’m carefully not saying “a week after they receive it” because they are scrambling to complete tasks in time to meet Airventure-imposed deadline.

If the STC is approved in time, I’ll fly N26BY to the IAC 67 “Apple Turnover” regional contest in Ephrata, WA, on 17 August on an IFR clearance (regardless of weather). Visibility degraded by wildfire smoke is the most likely “less than VFR” condition for which an IFR clearance would be needed. The 2025 Apple Turnover contest was shut down by wildfire smoke; many are expecting a bad summer because of a dry winter. Even if the weather is “severe clear” I’ll fly under IFR if the STC is approved. Alert the media.
On returning from Apple Turnover I intend to wrap my arms around all relevant posts and messages (with some help of AI and carbon-based sentient bipeds) to create a narrative of this adventure. My objective is to provide a road map for others interested in pursuing a “One Only” Decathlon IFR STC. I’m hoping that some of you may decide it would make sense to band together to pursue, under the leadership of someone with experience, a multiple STC. I’ll probably abstract the narrative into an article that I’ll submit to content-starved Sport Aerobatics. It might get a respectful reading in a late fall/early winter issue. Two of you are now flying Extras…but maybe you’d like them to be IFR capable.
I’ve spent almost $10K on DER fees and expect to slightly top that number by the end of July. If five Decathlon owners are interested in an STC, it might be more affordable to pool your resources into a quest of a multiple. A multiple STC owned by an LLC (or a company sponsor) could sell the STC, which might make pursuing the multiple STC even more affordable. I speak under correction (I’m talking to you, Jonathan).
The expense and effort of this project offends me. An FAA Part 145 repair station that is also a Garmin dealer installed avionics required for IFR flight into an airplane in compliance with an American Champion technical drawing that states installing those avionics into an airplane on the same Type Certificate make that airplane (the Scout) approved for IFR. Yet I had to spend 15 months and what may end up costing an additional $12K for DERs? This in microcosm is why General Aviation is dying. I could rant about this extensively (there’s a good YouTube video explaining why certification is stifling new affordable GA airplane innovation and development). The FAA is irrational about this. They want pilots to get IFR rated, but make upgrading VFR-only planes for IFR unaffordable.

I was asked yesterday if I would have done this if I’d known in May, 2025 how much it would cost and how long it would take. The immediate response to that question is: compared to what? One answer is that for the money I’ve spent I could have “up-engined” the SuperD to an AEIO-390 (I believe there is an STC for that), an upgrade that might have improved performance on every flight. OTOH, weather made flying to camp and our Apple Cup contest a challenge in May and June 2026. I’m looking forward to confidently flying in an IFR SuperD to contests that I wouldn’t attempt in October and even early November.

OK, I’m done for now.

Have an enjoyable and glorious Semiquincentennial celebration!

I am impressed
 
He is tenacious and invested heavily in this project. I think it takes real courage to get this far, and if they turn him down at this point it is probably time for us to write our congresscritters.
 
The expense and effort of this project offends me. An FAA Part 145 repair station that is also a Garmin dealer installed avionics required for IFR flight into an airplane in compliance with an American Champion technical drawing that states installing those avionics into an airplane on the same Type Certificate make that airplane (the Scout) approved for IFR. Yet I had to spend 15 months and what may end up costing an additional $12K for DERs? This in microcosm is why General Aviation is dying. I could rant about this extensively (there’s a good YouTube video explaining why certification is stifling new affordable GA airplane innovation and development). The FAA is irrational about this. They want pilots to get IFR rated, but make upgrading VFR-only planes for IFR unaffordable.

I had a front row seat to this back in the early 2010's as a person flying drones for hire. The FAA was years behind but refused to adopt an appropriate mindset to regulate operations which put a lot of us out of business. They refused to listen to anyone except the defense-contractor-scale interests.

Anywho, I'm very happy for you Bruce, it's great to see someone set a goal, see it through, and to then turn to the community and offer to help others. Call me when you fly your sequence IFR, I'd like to see that!
 
Well, tentative congratulations!

I would be happy to be part of an effort to get a global STC for the Decathlon, but as we have noted here, enthusiasm has not yet reached dull roar status.
Anything I would join would have to allow any brand or type of avionics and instruments. That is, when Garmin stops supporting the 750, I would want to be able to run a simple VOR receiver and remain certificated.
I am hearing that early Cirrus instrumentation will cease to be supported this year.
There are a handful of Decathlon owners who have asked me to keep them informed on the details of my adventure. I'd think that between this forum and the Facebook group a few more owners might join the group. (I was hoping that one of the members of the group with relatively deep pockets would be a major contributor...but he bought an Extra 330SC). I'll be disappointed if they don't band together, form an LLC, and pursue (or at least explore) a "multiples" IFR 8KCAB STC that they can sell to offset their investment.

They won't have to waste the months that I did applying for a field approval, only to have the cognizant Cert Branch rule that an STC was required. This consumed the arc around Sol from May through November 2025.

I'm guessing that their STC could restrict the avionics to Garmin components which have AMLs that approve installation in 8KCAB airplanes.

I don't know how much support they would need from ACA. I don't know if the LLC (which I'd expect would include a member who runs an STC company) would "venue shop" for a Cert Branch who could work with them.

The time spent working the PSCP and supporting documents should be reduced by adapting my documents. A big chunk of the time between last November and Time Now was consumed by my project's competing with the projects on which my Army of DERness (movie reference) was employed.
 
The strange thing is that most factory IFR certificated aircraft are not locked in to any specific avionics or instrument installation. It is the airframe itself that is certificated.

That, and the fact that you can build your own aircraft, declare it IFR worthy, and fly in instrument conditions with certificated aircraft ahead, behind, above, and below.

Even stranger, if I choose I can equip my J3 with minimal avionics etc, anf fly IFR legally.

There is no logic to what you had to do, and no logic at all as to why you cannot simply sell your STC.
 
What is it that is done during certification that enables a plane to be flown IFR? What would ACA have to do to change the language in the TCDS that doesn't allow IFR certification?
 
What is it that is done during certification that enables a plane to be flown IFR? What would ACA have to do to change the language in the TCDS that doesn't allow IFR certification?
The TCDS is silent (to my surprise; subject to correction) on VFR vs IFR certification (just did a search on "VFR" and "visual flight rules": no returns). The 8KCAB Airplane Flight Manual has a restriction that limits flight to "VFR-only". The Scout, which is on the same TCDS (A21CE) is authorized, also in its AFM, for flight under IFR when equipped in accordance with ACA technical drawing 7-1572. The basis of my (One Only, for N26BY) STC is that I've equipped N26BY with equivalent (newer) avionics per the tech drawing in an airplane on the same type certificate as the 8GCBC Scout. The STC will approve an AFM Supplement based on the Scout AFM, except the AFMS will retain the AFM language authorizing aerobatic flight in VFR conditions. The Flight Test Pilot DER is also requiring that the airplane must land after acro before it can fly in Normal category under IFR.
 

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