The problem is, there is only an STC for the JPI engine monitor, they don't have PMA or TSO so it's the STC to make it legal or, if your type isn't listed on the AML, a field approval using the STC data with JPI's permission.
1977 Super Decathlon 8KCAB Rebuild
- Thread starter Bartman
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Hiperbiper
Well-known member
JPI markets the -900 with an STC that adheres to an Approved Model List. Therefore the -900 conforms to the TSO standard for it's function(s). JPI also has the authority to produce and market it's products therefore it has a Parts Manufacturing Authority.
As to installing the STC'ed -900 (which moniters the engine parameters, not the propeller) along with an STC'ed propeller shouldn't cause any problems as long as the use of the prop doesn't change any engine operating indications (RPM limits,erc.). It's called "stacking" STC's and the only limitation is the installing agency, in this case your IA, make sure the two STC's play nice together...
Chris
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Thanks for further clarifying it Chris. The details of STC/PMA/TSO's are a mystery to me!
The prop STC does change the operating limits of the engine and those limits need to be displayed correctly on the engine's RPM display. JPI can accommodate that and I sent them the STC info for that purpose. But they have their STC's by airframe and prop and my combination isn't on their AML. Garmin doesn't list airframe/prop combinations in their AML so I can't say if they would have the same problem when confronted with an approved airframe but with an STC for a prop that they may or may not be able to represent accurately with their engine instrument.
Interestingly enough, ACA's selling new 8KCAB's with the Trailblazer prop and the JPI EDM-930. The airframe/prop isn't on the -930 AML either so I'm wondering if ACA already has the field approval boilerplate language on hand which they approve in house. I don't know, hoping to find out next week. I'm also going to call the Allentown, PA FSDO to see how they feel about the prospect of a field approval with my IA friend at the helm.
The prop STC does change the operating limits of the engine and those limits need to be displayed correctly on the engine's RPM display. JPI can accommodate that and I sent them the STC info for that purpose. But they have their STC's by airframe and prop and my combination isn't on their AML. Garmin doesn't list airframe/prop combinations in their AML so I can't say if they would have the same problem when confronted with an approved airframe but with an STC for a prop that they may or may not be able to represent accurately with their engine instrument.
Interestingly enough, ACA's selling new 8KCAB's with the Trailblazer prop and the JPI EDM-930. The airframe/prop isn't on the -930 AML either so I'm wondering if ACA already has the field approval boilerplate language on hand which they approve in house. I don't know, hoping to find out next week. I'm also going to call the Allentown, PA FSDO to see how they feel about the prospect of a field approval with my IA friend at the helm.
Hiperbiper
Well-known member
Hopefully your installation will be able to proceed with JPI modifying the limits/restrictions.
If you don't mind me asking; what about the prop changes the parameters? Does it do away with the 2600 RPM acro limit?
Chris
If you don't mind me asking; what about the prop changes the parameters? Does it do away with the 2600 RPM acro limit?
Chris
Chris,
It looks like it does away with the 2000-2250 red band.
This is what the limitations look like for a late 70's stock 180 hp Super Decathlon
and this is what the POH supplement has for the Trailblazer prop
Powerplant Instrument Markings
Tachometer
Normal Range (green arc) ................................................. 500* to 2600 RPM
Restricted Range (red arc) Acrobatic Operation Only ............... 2600 to 2700 RPM
Do Not Exceed (red radial) .......................................................... 2700 RPM
*or lower limit of tachometer scale whichever is greater.
It looks like it does away with the 2000-2250 red band.
This is what the limitations look like for a late 70's stock 180 hp Super Decathlon
and this is what the POH supplement has for the Trailblazer prop
Powerplant Instrument Markings
Tachometer
Normal Range (green arc) ................................................. 500* to 2600 RPM
Restricted Range (red arc) Acrobatic Operation Only ............... 2600 to 2700 RPM
Do Not Exceed (red radial) .......................................................... 2700 RPM
*or lower limit of tachometer scale whichever is greater.
Hiperbiper
Well-known member
Wow. Looks like Hartzell managed to solve a resonance issue with their new prop.
I wonder how the FSDO will react to a restriction being removed from an airframe/engine/prop combo as opposed to one being added.
Good luck with your quest...
Chris
I wonder how the FSDO will react to a restriction being removed from an airframe/engine/prop combo as opposed to one being added.
Good luck with your quest...
Chris
I would like to call out the Allentown, PA Flight Standards District Office and Avionics Inspector Tom Gilbert for outstanding customer service! We spoke this afternoon and he's fully supportive of the field approval I requested and encouraged me to get to work preparing the 337 for his approval.
If that doesn't deserve a triple dancing chicken, I don't know what does!
If that doesn't deserve a triple dancing chicken, I don't know what does!
Bob Turner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2018
- Messages
- 4,260
If ACA is installing exactly what you are, and they are not putting an ACA part number on the new parts, then it is by definition approved.
I am almost sure they have to add them to the TCDS to deliver aircraft equipped that way.
But field approvals are free when you can get them. Nice to have friends in high places.
I am almost sure they have to add them to the TCDS to deliver aircraft equipped that way.
But field approvals are free when you can get them. Nice to have friends in high places.
ACA is installing the EDM-930 which has a larger display, I'm using the -900.
The FSDo returned my email that I sent using their generic contact page! The guy couldn't have been nicer considering I was basically a cold call! He said it's the policy of the Allentown FSDO to try to provide good "customer service". Of course I thought WTF? but he delivered which was a nice surprise.
The FSDo returned my email that I sent using their generic contact page! The guy couldn't have been nicer considering I was basically a cold call! He said it's the policy of the Allentown FSDO to try to provide good "customer service". Of course I thought WTF? but he delivered which was a nice surprise.
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Hiperbiper
Well-known member
FAA has some good folks. Unfortunately, the poor ones seem to get all the press...
I'm happy you got it worked out so quickly...
Chris
I'm happy you got it worked out so quickly...
Chris
Continuing to inch along while i await a new panel blank. Most of the known unknowns have been resolved and I continue to keep an eye out for any unknown unknowns that might reveal themselves.
Mounted the original comm antenna mount whcih also serves as a ground plane but this will be for the GPS antenna now. The larger panel above the cabin will hold the VHF/comm antenna.
Also mounted the ground bus which is per an ACA engineering drawing. It is bolted to the radio support bar about 7 inches forward of the panel.
Mounted the original comm antenna mount whcih also serves as a ground plane but this will be for the GPS antenna now. The larger panel above the cabin will hold the VHF/comm antenna.
Also mounted the ground bus which is per an ACA engineering drawing. It is bolted to the radio support bar about 7 inches forward of the panel.
2nd time's a charm.
Left a little more meat between the iPad and radio cutouts, made the radios level across the bottom, and raised the CB's up enough to ensure they can clear any clutter at the base of the panel if/when they pop.
That hole for the USB port looks worse in the photo but that's what I get for free handing a harbor freight step bit in a drill. Should have made a nice 1" template in MDF with a forstner bit and then routed it. Garmin gets $50 !!!! mother effin dollars for the little cover plate so I think my son is going to have to 3D print me a neat little dress up ring for it. (edit: it looks fine with the black powder coat)
Will cut the hole for the engine monitor and ELT remote and then she's off for paint.
Also got the field approval for the engine monitor this week which is an amazing feat of customer service from our Allentown FSDO!
Left a little more meat between the iPad and radio cutouts, made the radios level across the bottom, and raised the CB's up enough to ensure they can clear any clutter at the base of the panel if/when they pop.
That hole for the USB port looks worse in the photo but that's what I get for free handing a harbor freight step bit in a drill. Should have made a nice 1" template in MDF with a forstner bit and then routed it. Garmin gets $50 !!!! mother effin dollars for the little cover plate so I think my son is going to have to 3D print me a neat little dress up ring for it. (edit: it looks fine with the black powder coat)
Will cut the hole for the engine monitor and ELT remote and then she's off for paint.
Also got the field approval for the engine monitor this week which is an amazing feat of customer service from our Allentown FSDO!
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flew out to the engine shop yesterday to pick up the extra parts i had dropped off. sitting on the bench was my brandy new crank shaft waiting for the case halves to show up. I wish I got a better picture of the cargo area, there were three boxes of parts! Mostly bulky stuff, not really super heavy but it's nice to see what even the humble 7ECA is happy to do. Plus two oil sumps in the back seat. 
that 100lbs of baggage capacity is frickin' awesome!
a nice cylinder lamp by the engine shop.
that 100lbs of baggage capacity is frickin' awesome!
a nice cylinder lamp by the engine shop.
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it's all set for my engine to be built around it.
Making progress again, will post more when it is all in and tidied up.
Ed,
Here's the long answer, I originally was working towards an aluminum placard with an anodized print that would be nearly indestructible, like a motor data plate. The shop I was working with first sent a matte finish label with low res graphics (they asked for a 300 dpi jpg file
) that was easily marred and then they sent a nice label but it was oversized. In dealing with them they were kind of rude so I asked for my money back (about $120 for the one label!) and moved on.
Next best option would be a silk screen so I got to work giving that a try. I made a nice screen but couldn't get the ink to lay out evenly across the whole field. I tried screening with Rustoleum enamel for durability and then opted for a screen ink which would require a clear coat.
I had been trying to avoid having to clear coat it but I couldn't get either ink to work and didn't want to keep wiping the powder coat with mineral spirits so it was on to the next option, which I had been trying to avoid, vinyl. A local shop tried to cut my graphic from white vinyl but the text was too small. That left print-on-vinyl which was the lowest form on the schnazzy scale but I didn't have any other options. Callie at callie-graphics.com sent me a bunch of labels but she didn't have the font I used and I neglected to send the file with the fonts outlined so I didn't like what she sent.
As I tried to work with her to get it fixed, it occurred to me that since I now accepted I'd have to clear coat the panel, I could try making my own print-on-vinyl graphics as a way to check my work before Callie did her higher quality prints. The first vinyl sheets I bought worked great and the print quality was really high. Naturally I went looking for a higher quality vinyl, found it, tried it, and it looked awesome. I must have printed twenty different labels.
What worked in the end was a gray field, white text, blue border, and a pattern over the top that I was able to re-color to match the blue border. The pattern adds a blue hue to the grey although it will probably fade a bit over time, we'll see. Adobe Illustrator was used to make the graphic and I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I used Eastwood 2 part matte epoxy clear coat over the whole panel and it was super nice to work with after I learned the first few coats have to be light and given time to set to keep the vinyl from bubbling. The label that's on there now was put on after I bubbled the first one.
FWIW, ACA's placards are printed on vinyl so I guess vinyl is not so bad after all. I'm going to make all of my placards to match the panel and the interior is already ordered and will be that same gray with a hint of blue theme.
And one last thing, painting in the dusty old shed wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be. For the clear coat I did the extra step of wiping the panel with a tack rag and the finish came out great and there weren't any dust nubs in the finish. I was wrong thinking that wiping with alcohol and blowing it off with compressed air would be enough to remove any last bits of dust. Hooray for tack rags! lol
Here's the long answer, I originally was working towards an aluminum placard with an anodized print that would be nearly indestructible, like a motor data plate. The shop I was working with first sent a matte finish label with low res graphics (they asked for a 300 dpi jpg file
) that was easily marred and then they sent a nice label but it was oversized. In dealing with them they were kind of rude so I asked for my money back (about $120 for the one label!) and moved on.Next best option would be a silk screen so I got to work giving that a try. I made a nice screen but couldn't get the ink to lay out evenly across the whole field. I tried screening with Rustoleum enamel for durability and then opted for a screen ink which would require a clear coat.
I had been trying to avoid having to clear coat it but I couldn't get either ink to work and didn't want to keep wiping the powder coat with mineral spirits so it was on to the next option, which I had been trying to avoid, vinyl. A local shop tried to cut my graphic from white vinyl but the text was too small. That left print-on-vinyl which was the lowest form on the schnazzy scale but I didn't have any other options. Callie at callie-graphics.com sent me a bunch of labels but she didn't have the font I used and I neglected to send the file with the fonts outlined so I didn't like what she sent.
As I tried to work with her to get it fixed, it occurred to me that since I now accepted I'd have to clear coat the panel, I could try making my own print-on-vinyl graphics as a way to check my work before Callie did her higher quality prints. The first vinyl sheets I bought worked great and the print quality was really high. Naturally I went looking for a higher quality vinyl, found it, tried it, and it looked awesome. I must have printed twenty different labels.
What worked in the end was a gray field, white text, blue border, and a pattern over the top that I was able to re-color to match the blue border. The pattern adds a blue hue to the grey although it will probably fade a bit over time, we'll see. Adobe Illustrator was used to make the graphic and I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I used Eastwood 2 part matte epoxy clear coat over the whole panel and it was super nice to work with after I learned the first few coats have to be light and given time to set to keep the vinyl from bubbling. The label that's on there now was put on after I bubbled the first one.
FWIW, ACA's placards are printed on vinyl so I guess vinyl is not so bad after all. I'm going to make all of my placards to match the panel and the interior is already ordered and will be that same gray with a hint of blue theme.
And one last thing, painting in the dusty old shed wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be. For the clear coat I did the extra step of wiping the panel with a tack rag and the finish came out great and there weren't any dust nubs in the finish. I was wrong thinking that wiping with alcohol and blowing it off with compressed air would be enough to remove any last bits of dust. Hooray for tack rags! lol
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Bob Turner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2018
- Messages
- 4,260
Surprised that Callie couldn't do your font.
We were doing a model of the Fairbanks Morse locomotive used by a now defunct railroad to haul the Olympian Hiawatha. The font was so obscure we literally had to supply a drawing. She did a spectacular job. She can do anything, apparently, if supplied the correct information. Lemme see if I have a photo . . .
We were doing a model of the Fairbanks Morse locomotive used by a now defunct railroad to haul the Olympian Hiawatha. The font was so obscure we literally had to supply a drawing. She did a spectacular job. She can do anything, apparently, if supplied the correct information. Lemme see if I have a photo . . .
She didn't not do it, she just didn't realize I wanted it exactly as drawn and I didn't format the file correctly to make it possible.