Considering Making a Citabria/Decathlon IFR

Great conversation here. While I know flying IMC through a cloud layer in So Cal. is a issue, so is IMC in Alaska and it would be tempting to have that capability here, however one component that so far I have not seen discussed is anti icing, which is a big issue here. So in my view I don't know how you can have a fully IFR aircraft without the heated pitot probe (which was already mentioned) as well as anti icing on the wings, wing struts, and tail. I don't think that possible on 7/8 series aircraft. Maybe icing is not being considered at all on the airfoil here, but just the pitot? Not sure how that would work in unknown icing conditions. I guess that brings up the subject of known, versus unknown icing conditions. I do know there are Cessna products out there that have the heated pitot and are considered IFR rated with no airfoil anti icing capabilities but I don't get it. If someone can explain that to me. Thanks.

Cheers, Brian
 
Most light aircraft are not “known icing” equipped. Maybe some Bonanzas? And some Cirrusi. The only light plane I ever flew that was “equipped” was a Cheyenne.

Before the “known icing” restriction we used to pick up a layer of rime all the time in Mooneys and 180s.

It would be nice if the factory added it to the type certificate - that is really the only economical way to officially go IFR in a Decathlon. It is a great instrument platform . . .
 
Slipinonfinal said:
I do know there are Cessna products out there that have the heated pitot and are considered IFR rated with no airfoil anti icing capabilities but I don't get it. If someone can explain that to me. Thanks.
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Brian,

So long as you stay below the freezing level, you should be fine without anti-icing or deicing equipment. In the unusual event where you encounter icing that wasn't forecasted for your altitude, the strategy is to climb ASAP, while you still can, to colder air where any moisture is too cold to stick (hopefully). If that doesn't work then descend to warmer air where ice will melt.

side note, I owe you a call back!
 
By the way -

as well as anti icing on the wings, wing struts, and tail. I don't think that possible . . .

The 737 doesn’t have tail plane anti-ice. Still ok for known icing with a 6000# penalty (memory).
 
I get to rent a friend's FIKI equipped Bonanza A36, and it is nice to have. I'm less confident than others, and use it as insurance, but it does allow me to start and complete trips I wouldn't start otherwise. Interestingly, as I moved up to the Boston area from Philly - my impression is that it's less common to have de-ice equipment (as well as heated hangars). So either people are more hardy up here and just fly through stuff - or learned to totally keep out of them. I am not worried about not having a heated pitot on my Citabria - were I to start to pick up any ice, I would immediately be looking to get out of it. GPS groundspeed is good enough for that given the G5s.
 
Thanks to all here on that explanation of the IFR vs anti icing environment.

Bob, good note on the 737 tail and no anti ice. I forgot about that and I should know. Worked them for many years. My favorite will always be the 737-200. Absolute work horse. We had the combi version here and it was always a kick to see paying passengers from the lower 48 walking out onto the ramp to get on the aircraft and realizing they were flying in the back behind a load of fish. Those days are gone as the feds wouldn't approve that configuration anymore.

Bart, no problem on the call back, crazy busy here as well,

Cheers, Brian
 
We own SuperD (8KCAB) N26BY, built in 2004 (it's the SuperD on the ACA page for Decathlons). We fly it aerobatically. I participate in IAC regional contests. There have been many times when I can't get to an event or get home because of IMC through/in which I could easily fly in a 172. I know that the cost of an IFR equipment upgrade would buy many, many nights in motel rooms waiting for WX to clear (leaving very early enroute to an event or getting home days later after).

However, I would like to research a field approval that would authorize flight under IFR. I'm thinking of installing the following Garmin hardware:
GTN 175 GPS
GNC 255 Nav/Com
2x G5s
GMU 11 Magnetometer (would installing a magnetometer require replacing the original strobes with LED strobes/nav lights?)

I'm unclear whether a field approval would require installation of a heated pitot tube. I tried to have the bracket for a heated pitot tube installed when we recovered the left wing last spring, but the part that our good friend Chad sent was identical to the bracket that's already installed. I'd hate to have the re-open the fabric.

We have an SL40 comm transceiver, but no nav ratio, an Appareo Stratus ES/ESG transponder (ADS-B Out), mag compass, digital clock, and the other equipment required for Part 23 VFR-Day and -Night certification. I'm hoping that I wouldn't need an audio panel and could retain the SL40 as back-up comms.

When I fly IFR in 172s and other rental airplanes I carry a Sentry and and iPad with Foreflight. I use those when I fly VFR XC in the SuperD.

I understand from Facebook postings that there was a one-time-good-deal STC for a SuperD IFR cert and (allegedly) some owners have obtained an IFR field approval from the Milwaukee FSDO for a 91.205(d) equipment upgrade...maybe performed by ACA?

Can anyone on the forum put me in touch with a Decathlon owner who has obtained an IFR field approval for an 8KCAB or a contact at ACA (I understand that Dale has retired)?

Any other ideas, advice, thoughts and prayers?

For context: I have about 430 SuperD hours of 4,200 total hours. I'm an instrument flight instructor happy to fly in IMC and appropriately paranoid about staying out of icing conditions.

Cheers!

Bruce Mamont
 
The Decathlon shoots an extremely stable approach at 90 indicated, if that helps. Any CAR 4a aircraftcan be flown legally IFR with the minimum equipment stated in the regs.

You just need a willing inspector with field approval authorization to add the IFR for the Decathlon, which is Part 23, and may require the heated pitot. Even my J3 can legally enter the system - at 40 Kts - with the minimum instruments and one VOR receiver. I think the GCAA can legally fly IFR, since it is a 4a aircraft. Very little difference in real life.

The better way would be to have ACA do it. I am still hoping they will put the 160 Lyc on the type certificate - what a spectacular engine! My flying career will not last long enough to justify the expense, but it would be a superior aircraft.

But ACA would probably restrict either one to metal spar aluminum gear. Helps sell parts. That, plus I doubt they are getting wealthy as it is.

I maintain my IFR competency in the Dec - Venturi gyros, a KN-51 G/S receiver, and for unofficial help, a Garmin 295.
I turn the air off for partial panel work. Always in the clear with a rated check pilot, of course.
 
I thought this was discussed at length before. The 8KCAB is type certificated with a flight manual - and the flight manual restricts flights to day & night VFR only. You therefore need an approved revision to the flight manual, and the only 2 examples I know of had to go through a process with a FISDO, to get a one off STC.
BTW: heated pitot is not an FAA required minimum equipment for IFR flight
 
Couple GI275s and a GTN or WAAS GNS would be what I’d do, just have it GPS, flight director, stay away from anything near ice and buy beers for anyone sequenced behind you ;)
 
volvo164 said:
I have - ACA doesn't really comment on pre ACA planes - but if you look up his comments on the Facebook group, you'll see that basically he'll confirm that pre '79 there is no AFM, and all restrictions are listed via placards. He implies that planes were placarded against IFR - but I've not seen one. And while placards are listed in the TCDS, there are none associated with VFR or IFR.

Another factor is insurance and lawsuits. Despite the AFM not being mandatory, and the owner's manual not a regulatory document for the FAA, an insurance company or lawyer might argue that you were operating the plane contradictory to the factory owner's manual.

Really sucks that Bellanca just went ahead and changed the wording in the owner's manual, from what Champion listed. Not only did Champion allow for the possibility of IFR, but many of the early 7 series planes came with an extra tall panel to accommodate a full gyro panel.

Lastly, it seems it should be absolutely no big deal to allow these aircraft to fly IFR. If you look up the details of the individual STC that's been discussed (again on Facebook), it's basically an electrical load test. If you put in a modern transponder, gps communicator, and 2 G5s, your load is less than probably a single old transponder or nav/com. Seems the FAA is now insisting on heated pitot, despite it not being required in the regs ... but even that's easy to overcome
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I just purchased a 1965 7eca and it is specifically placarded for day/night vfr only.
Bob Turner said:
Volvo may be correct! This is what makes forums so great - collective wisdom! I see nothing in A21CE requiring a placard. I will check my AFM.

Yes, paragraph 1.1.5 - only VFR, day or night, operations are approved.
But Ed has a rationale that one might use that indicates that an AFM is not required, notwithstanding the type certificate requirement (which may have been added in 1979).

This deserves a further look. The Decathlon is a superb instrument platform, and SoCal is famous for 200' thick overcasts.
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So any idea who put that on the dash? CAR4a airplanes are not limited.

I had forgotten this thread - Ed's mention of pre-1979 airplanes might be an interesting idea.

I doubt I will try it - it takes me an average of eight months to get the simplest field approval. I would buy the STC, if they kept it simple - you know, any attitude/directional gyro, clock, turn & bank, and nav receivers appropriate to the route flown. Heated pitot ought to be separate.

Opinion.
 
Am I correct that all mandatory placards are listed in the TCDS? There's no mention of IFR/VFR in the TCDS. The airplane manual for the '69 clearly states Day Night VFR Only, IFR with optional equipment (or something like that). As such (i.e. not mandated in TCDS, and stated in the manual), once equipped for IFR, the placard could be dispensed with.
 
Citabria is a CAR4a airplane. For those, any can legally be flown IFR.

Decathlon is certificated under different rules. If an AFM says VFR only, you are going to need more than gyros and a sweep second hand.

By the way, POH is different from an AFM, at least legally.
 
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