Citabria Turn coordinator replacement suggestions?
- Thread starter Flyingj
- Start date
Desert7GCBC
Well-known member
I reference the ball a lot while flying any airplane. (Maybe I'm just naturally uncoordinated and need the help.)
I flew a C-172 recently that had an AV-30. The turn coordinator was at the bottom of the display and was tiny. The ball itself was smaller than a BB. The whole turn coordinator display was about 1/2" wide. The small size and marginal pixel resolution made it frustrating to use especially since my bifocals don't seem to be optimized for that distance. That being said, maybe there's a software option that makes it bigger.
Just my $0.02 worth
I flew a C-172 recently that had an AV-30. The turn coordinator was at the bottom of the display and was tiny. The ball itself was smaller than a BB. The whole turn coordinator display was about 1/2" wide. The small size and marginal pixel resolution made it frustrating to use especially since my bifocals don't seem to be optimized for that distance. That being said, maybe there's a software option that makes it bigger.
Just my $0.02 worth
Me too. I think it is one of the 2 or 3 most important instruments in the aircraft.
There are several affordable slip/skid indicators on Spruce. Most of them are experimental. But if the digital ball meets the legal requirement, then any additional mechanical balls would be "advisory", no? Zero point zero chance of anyone ever checking the certification status of something like that, but if you did run across the world's most zealous ramp checker or annual inspector, easy enough to turn 2 screws and remove it. Could even velcro it and call it portable. Heck, zip tie one of Bob's carpenter levels in there.
Here is one that fits the screw pattern for a 2 1/4" gauge hole. A bit over priced, but less expensive than dropping a wing turning base to final.
Swift Bank Inclinometer Icm2 | Aircraft Spruce ®
Swift Bank Inclinometer Icm2 A bank indicator, it also has the function of slip indication.
www.aircraftspruce.com
Hey, @Bob Turner we're just kidding, I'm your biggest fan! 
Bob Turner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2018
- Messages
- 4,053
I never have learned how to tap my foot and strum the guitar at the same time. But when I passed a thousand hours in a J3 I suddenly discovered that I really could tell whether we were slipping or skidding without looking at the ball. I think that was ten years after I bought the thing.
Still have it, 60 years later. Didn't fly today - busy rib-stitching and installing another Garmin.
Still have it, 60 years later. Didn't fly today - busy rib-stitching and installing another Garmin.
i have heard people say you can feel it in your neck muscles but it takes some learning to figure it out.
May need to replace my existing AHI due to damage. I am giving the AV-30C another look.
I have the RC Allen 2600 and really like the performance, so I was leaning towards the RC Allen Mini 6. However, the bang for the buck is just better with the AV-30C, especially the ability to use as a DG.
A few questions for those of you flying the AV-30C:
1. Is there any constraint on switching between AI and DG mode when installed as VFR?
2. Has there been any movement on the issue of a magnetometer to improve heading accuracy issues for the C model?
3. In the absence of GPS input, does the HSI display behave like a DG, eg I can manually set heading with heading bug?
Finally, does anyone have a photo of the rear of an installed device?
I have the RC Allen 2600 and really like the performance, so I was leaning towards the RC Allen Mini 6. However, the bang for the buck is just better with the AV-30C, especially the ability to use as a DG.
A few questions for those of you flying the AV-30C:
1. Is there any constraint on switching between AI and DG mode when installed as VFR?
2. Has there been any movement on the issue of a magnetometer to improve heading accuracy issues for the C model?
3. In the absence of GPS input, does the HSI display behave like a DG, eg I can manually set heading with heading bug?
Finally, does anyone have a photo of the rear of an installed device?
Desert7GCBC
Well-known member
I'm still a fan of the turn & bank. Back in the late 70s, I owned an 11AC Chief (N3224E) equipped with a venturi-powered turn & bank. A buddy and I would amuse ourselves flying "IFR". The "Captain" would take off, don a hood, and the "FO" would mention another grass airport maybe 40 miles away. (30+ minutes in a Chief.) The "Captain" would then figure out a heading from a Sectional, throw in a fudge factor for wind, and start a stopwatch, all while maintaining a standard-rate climbing turn over the departure airport. We were usually able to at least be in sight of our destination after this exercise. We'd land, walk around for a bit, change places, and then do it again.
Using a turn & bank, you have three separate actions to perform; 1. Yaw; Keep the ball centered at all times with the rudder pedals. 2. Pitch; Use stick or trim to adjust airspeed. (Slower = nose up, etc.) 3. Roll; Use ailerons to place the needle in the center or on a doghouse to turn. It's pretty easy to learn in my opinion.
Charles Lindbergh had only a turn & bank, clock, and a whiskey compass in the Spirit of St. Louis. According to his autobiography, he changed heading 3/4 degree per hour to fly a great circle route to Paris. He missed his landfall in Ireland by 9 miles. Think about that...
Using a turn & bank, you have three separate actions to perform; 1. Yaw; Keep the ball centered at all times with the rudder pedals. 2. Pitch; Use stick or trim to adjust airspeed. (Slower = nose up, etc.) 3. Roll; Use ailerons to place the needle in the center or on a doghouse to turn. It's pretty easy to learn in my opinion.
Charles Lindbergh had only a turn & bank, clock, and a whiskey compass in the Spirit of St. Louis. According to his autobiography, he changed heading 3/4 degree per hour to fly a great circle route to Paris. He missed his landfall in Ireland by 9 miles. Think about that...
Flyingj
Well-known member
No restrictions whatsoever switching between AI and DG, you choose that option in the maintenance menu to suit your requirements. The maintenance menu is always available on the ground (during power up only) if you want to change any installation settings. Most other setting changes are available at anytime, including inflight. I flew with mine for the first couple of weeks without a GPS feed while waiting for a software update for Garmin. All DG functions were available independent of GPS functions.
As mentioned earlier, I'm going to install a mechanical inclinometer soon (probably the Swift model you pointed out) since the digital ball is hidden while flying in DG mode.
Hammersmith
Well-known member
Depends if your using it to replace any VFR required instruments or not, if yes, then it has to be locked. If it is an advisory/backup it can be left unlocked at install. Just hold the knob for a couple seconds to switch between. I don’t think I ever have other than during my instrument training.
Magnetometers come standard in the new units just make sure it isn’t old stock if its not someone moving a lot of them. As far as I know it’s still in testing. They now have an external unit you can add, experimental use only(so far). Will just be a software update once it’s approved for the newer units. And yes you can set heading with a heading bug in either mode. Here’s the D-sub for the update https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pinconnector11-12149.php and pins https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/femdpincrimp.php a good self aligning crimper is spendy so find a friend or get your harness ready for a shop, if you want to do it yourself there a some 4 way crimpers for $30-50 on Amazon but haven’t tried them… OAT is a P/N C307PS if you want it. I suggest the 1/4” polyflo tubing since it’s more flexible and easier to work with.
Magnetometers come standard in the new units just make sure it isn’t old stock if its not someone moving a lot of them. As far as I know it’s still in testing. They now have an external unit you can add, experimental use only(so far). Will just be a software update once it’s approved for the newer units. And yes you can set heading with a heading bug in either mode. Here’s the D-sub for the update https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pinconnector11-12149.php and pins https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/femdpincrimp.php a good self aligning crimper is spendy so find a friend or get your harness ready for a shop, if you want to do it yourself there a some 4 way crimpers for $30-50 on Amazon but haven’t tried them… OAT is a P/N C307PS if you want it. I suggest the 1/4” polyflo tubing since it’s more flexible and easier to work with.
Attachments
Last edited:
It replaces TC and slip/skid. Neither are required by FAR 91.204 for VFR. I'll check the equipment list in my AFM later to verify they are optional.
Just to clarify, it can be easily and quickly switched between AHI and DG in flight, correct? I can see myself flying XC in DG mode but would want to be able to switch quickly to AHI were I to inadvertently enter IMC.
Just to clarify, it can be easily and quickly switched between AHI and DG in flight, correct? I can see myself flying XC in DG mode but would want to be able to switch quickly to AHI were I to inadvertently enter IMC.
Flyingj
Well-known member
From the AV-30-C Pilot's Guide:
"When installed as a non-required instrument (not replacing the existing
approved AI or DG), the functional mode of the unit can be toggled
between AI and DG by pressing and holding the rotary knob for 3 seconds."
This can be done at anytime, on the ground or inflight.
AV-30-C Pilot's Guide | Aircraft Sprucehttps://www.aircraftspruce.com › av30pilotsguide
Found this announcement for the external magnetometer. The ability to mount it out in a wing away from the steel frame is appealing.
www.aeronautical.co.za
So, FAR 91.205 lists "magnetic direction indicator" as required equipment for VFR. Any chance the STC allows this to replace a compass?
uAvionix introduces AV-Mag External Magnetometer for AV-30
uAvionix introduces AV-Mag External Magnetometer for AV-30 uAvionix today announced AV-Mag, the high precision 3-axis external magnetometer for AV-30
www.aeronautical.co.za
So, FAR 91.205 lists "magnetic direction indicator" as required equipment for VFR. Any chance the STC allows this to replace a compass?
Hammersmith
Well-known member
I don’t know if you’ll find any FAA guys to go along with you on that one, especially since it’s still an experimental add-on only.Found this announcement for the external magnetometer. The ability to mount it out in a wing away from the steel frame is appealing.
uAvionix introduces AV-Mag External Magnetometer for AV-30
uAvionix introduces AV-Mag External Magnetometer for AV-30 uAvionix today announced AV-Mag, the high precision 3-axis external magnetometer for AV-30
So, FAR 91.205 lists "magnetic direction indicator" as required equipment for VFR. Any chance the STC allows this to replace a compass?
According to the sources I found, the FAA does accept magnetometer input to an EFIS as meeting the requirement. So presumably the STC may cover that when released.
Found this announcement for the external magnetometer. The ability to mount it out in a wing away from the steel frame is appealing.
uAvionix introduces AV-Mag External Magnetometer for AV-30
uAvionix introduces AV-Mag External Magnetometer for AV-30 uAvionix today announced AV-Mag, the high precision 3-axis external magnetometer for AV-30
So, FAR 91.205 lists "magnetic direction indicator" as required equipment for VFR. Any chance the STC allows this to replace a compass?
wouldn't you want a compass just to have a compass? what would Charles Lindbergh do? that would make a good bracelet, WWCLD
Flyingj
Well-known member
After no luck in finding an economical solution, I finally purchased this "Swift" indicator from Aircraft Spruce. Temporarily mounted with some double sided tape, it is level and performs flawlessly. I didn't have a problem with the integrated digital ball but now I have slip-skid indication while the AV-30 is in DG mode.
how well does the ball in the AV30 work?